EPTThink those buffs worked.
[Patch 5.10] Ekko General Discussion - Page 15
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
Think those buffs worked. | ||
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3threes3
Spain6 Posts
On June 01 2015 01:46 Goumindong wrote: Uhh no. because the question is "why didn't he rush IE" and if he did that he wouldn't have other crit to be multiplied. If you're concerns about your mid game item timings/power then zeal after BF/Pick is a lot better than finishing IE. Then do you finish IE or PD I am not sure. Yeah, I agree with you. But should be noted that this build was just a really good adaptation to how CLG planned the game out, the statistics he was getting at every moment allowed him to do more every single time, in a standard lane with a 2v2 match up until later on, I still think the IE rush is better, specially for long range ADs like Ashe that can constantly get some autos on the enemies, getting a huge crit can win you the lane. | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On June 01 2015 02:07 3threes3 wrote: Yeah, I agree with you. But should be noted that this build was just a really good adaptation to how CLG planned the game out, the statistics he was getting at every moment allowed him to do more every single time, in a standard lane with a 2v2 match up until later on, I still think the IE rush is better, specially for long range ADs like Ashe that can constantly get some autos on the enemies, getting a huge crit can win you the lane. But that is the thing. Ashe can't get that huge crit to win the lane anymore. Its also why shiv is bad on her now (you can't every get a 200/250 damage proc until you've got PD/Shiv/IE which basically requires 6 items. So if you can't get that big crit anymore, no burst or luck opportunity, you have to hard maximize dps(and try to account for how the extra attack speed/move speed effects your ability to get damage off safely) | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
It's a 37.5% damage increase on average, per auto, if you have 0% crit before completing IE (you ignored that part, it's less if you already have crit). Zeal is probably something like ~25% (20% AS a bit reduced since you already have AS from runes/masteries/levels, then 10% increase due to the crit%). Sure on 1-2 autos where you don't crit then Zeal is stronger because more AS, but on average finishing IE's better if you have the 275 gold required. Since none of these buys give you AD the question of "how much damage comes from your autos compared to skills/other steroids (like Corki's)" is irrelevant too. | ||
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chalice
United States1945 Posts
when i was looking at builds on op.gg there was a korean diamond graves main that almost always bought an AS dagger before finishing IE and then finishing bezerker greaves after IE and it seemed to make a lot of sense to me. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On June 01 2015 02:31 Alaric wrote: Zeal is better at the 1100 gold point, but for 1375 gold finishing IE is straight-up better. It's a 37.5% damage increase on average, per auto, if you have 0% crit before completing IE (you ignored that part, it's less if you already have crit). Zeal is probably something like ~25% (20% AS a bit reduced since you already have AS from runes/masteries/levels, then 10% increase due to the crit%). Sure on 1-2 autos where you don't crit then Zeal is stronger because more AS, but on average finishing IE's better if you have the 275 gold required. Since none of these buys give you AD the question of "how much damage comes from your autos compared to skills/other steroids (like Corki's)" is irrelevant too. 1) No its fucking not. It was a 37.5% increase per auto BEFORE the 5% crit nerf on it. Now its a 30% increase per auto 2) No its still fucking not. Ashe goes from 1.1 to 1.4 buying it. Which is 27.2% 3) No its goddamn not. Zeal gives 20% AS. Say you're level 10 and have 15 AS in runes, 5% in masteries, and 15% stacking. The 20% AS is a 13.7% effective DPS increase before you start stacking your stacking attack and 12.4% DPS increase after (Plus you stack it faster!). Combined with the 15% Crit this is a 29.2% to 27.7% DPS increase [New numbers for 10% Crit: 24%/ 22.6%) 4) Add in the 3% more AD that IE has and [ed: IE has only a 5% DPS increase over Zeal but loses the intangibles like faster Q stacking, Faster Crit/AS stacking, move speed, etc. If the extra AS helps you get one more attack, or stay in range for better kiting or anything super marginal then zeal outdamages IE]. edit: NOOOO, math error, zeal only has 10% crit D: Still probably better though, especially since zeal advances the crit/as stacking mastery DPS increase faster than IE | ||
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On June 01 2015 02:31 Alaric wrote: Zeal is better at the 1100 gold point, but for 1375 gold finishing IE is straight-up better. It's a 37.5% damage increase on average, per auto, if you have 0% crit before completing IE (you ignored that part, it's less if you already have crit). Zeal is probably something like ~25% (20% AS a bit reduced since you already have AS from runes/masteries/levels, then 10% increase due to the crit%). Sure on 1-2 autos where you don't crit then Zeal is stronger because more AS, but on average finishing IE's better if you have the 275 gold required. Since none of these buys give you AD the question of "how much damage comes from your autos compared to skills/other steroids (like Corki's)" is irrelevant too. IE is only 20% crit chance, not 25% anymore. So you're down to a 30% damage increase, for more gold than the zeal and without the MS. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
On June 01 2015 02:49 Sonnington wrote: Can we talk about Ekko stun for a second? It's like a Veigar cage but it also gives a shield and level 1 is a 2.25 second stun. Sure, it has a 3 second cast time, but it only gives you half a second to get out of the way. "You know what we need on our new assassin? Incredibly strong siege tools." The problem with Ekko is not that he has too much shit. That's not inherently terrible on its own. The problem is all the numbers are too damn high. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On June 01 2015 02:49 Sonnington wrote: Can we talk about Ekko stun for a second? It's like a Veigar cage but it also gives a shield and level 1 is a 2.25 second stun. Sure, it has a 3 second cast time, but it only gives you half a second to get out of the way. "You know what we need on our new assassin? Incredibly strong siege tools." "You know that skill we thought was broken and unbalancable? That one where we gutted a champion for? Lets give the new guy that with less detection and a free shield." - Riot You can tell there is a huge disconnect between the live balance team and the content creation team. Its like when they said Eve / Rengar stealth mechanics were impossible then they released Khazix. Or even before that, they were btiching about manaless champs (Riven, Lee, Renekton) with sustain being unbalancable, and then they released Rengar next champ. On a different note; Would it be a good idea to run one crit rune on Ashe? Whats that damage formula look like? Good idea, bad idea? | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
On June 01 2015 02:58 iCanada wrote: "You know that skill we thought was broken and unbalancable? That one where we gutted a champion for? Lets give the new guy that with less detection and a free shield." - Riot You can tell there is a huge disconnect between the live balance team and the content creation team. Its like when they said Eve / Rengar stealth mechanics were impossible then they released Khazix. Or even before that, they were btiching about manaless champs (Riven, Lee, Renekton) with sustain being unbalancable, and then they released Rengar next champ. On a different note; Would it be a good idea to run one crit rune on Ashe? Whats that damage formula look like? Good idea, bad idea? Consensus on crit runes was that they were ever so slightly better late game but hurt your early game and made last hitting unnecessarily more difficult. A few might be marginally better though? | ||
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Nohiko
71 Posts
On June 01 2015 02:49 Sonnington wrote: Can we talk about Ekko stun for a second? It's like a Veigar cage but it also gives a shield and level 1 is a 2.25 second stun. Sure, it has a 3 second cast time, but it only gives you half a second to get out of the way. "You know what we need on our new assassin? Incredibly strong siege tools." I'm not sure that I would compare Ekko's W to to Veigar's E in a siege situation. Veigar E is strong because it provides persistent stun threat to zone the enemy off their tower, letting you dps it down. Sure Ekko W has a comparable AoE, but once he proccs the stun, the zoning threat is gone. Also its worth noting that the stun and the shield can't be 'stacked' against the same target, because the shield duration is shorter than the stun duration. This is less relevant if he is tanking tower (or there are enemies left unstunned who can still hit him). | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On June 01 2015 02:54 Caiada wrote: So 10 AD, 10% crit and the crit passive, or 30% AS and 200 gold. Trying to come up with the set of items that does this but IE goes from 75 to 80 AD, and Zeal has 20% AS so i can't figure it out. IE + Zeal = 4950 gold PD+BF+Pick = 5175 IE+ Zeal = 80 AD, 45% crit(total after passive), 20% AS + 225 gold PD = 75 AD, 30% crit, 50% AS DPS @ level 13 (note i am ignoring base AS because its the same for everyone. We will never hit 2.5 attack speed even with 2 PD's and max Q so don't have to worry about it. Actual DPS numbers will be LOWER than this) IE : 180 x 1.55 x (base AS) x 1.765 to 1.915 = 492.44 / 534.36 PD: 175 x 1.4 x 2.065 to 2.215 = 505.2 / 542.7 DPS @ 13 with Q active IE : 180 x 1.55 x (base AS) x 1.35 x 2.365 to 2.515 = 890.77 / 947 PD : 175 x 1.4 x (base AS) x 1.35 x 2.665 to 2.815 = 881 / 931 So it looks like PD is slightly worse with Q(because we expect fully stacked crit/AS mastery when you activate Q) but good deal better (because it stacks the bonus DPS from the Crit/AS mastery faster) without/before Q. I can definitely see going for PD before IE and finishing IE second now that I've run the numbers edit: Forgot a doran's blade in there and that will skew the above numbers slightly in favor of IE. So PD is actually better than that appears and gets better as you add any ancillary AD or On-hit from other sources (Janna Shield, Vamp Scepters, Doran's blades, Lulu shield) though AD cannot move the numbers very much (since its only nicking at a 3% raw AD advantage to like 2%) On June 01 2015 02:58 iCanada wrote: On a different note; Would it be a good idea to run one crit rune on Ashe? Whats that damage formula look like? Good idea, bad idea? No. It is never a good idea to run one crit rune. As of current, you have to have IE before it makes sense to use any kind of crit runes and the advantage you get at peak is like 3% DPS. But you lose like 5% DPS at levels 1-6 plus loads of last hitting power(I.E. not crit damage)plus loads of damage early on your W(which you need to be able to fight in lane) before you have IE. Things are pretty even when you get BF (iirc about 2% or so advantage for damage runes) but still not worth it until you get the crit damage multiplier. It also doesn't ever make sense to use crit damage runes since crit chance dominates until IE+PD | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
Wonder if in that case, BF into PD would be a viable thing on her. Also, this further implies that the reason every other ADC goes IE right now is the power of big RNG crits, which looks kinda shitty design-wise.... | ||
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Kaethis
Netherlands112 Posts
Seeing as Ashe doesn't do that, running one crit rune on her probably doesn't make sense. I don't know how the math works out though. | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
On May 31 2015 14:10 Slusher wrote: with warrior coming back I think kha is on the rise DIamond 1 Khazix has been pooping on solo q for a while now. Has even caused other junglers like Meteos to pick up the bug again after showing how silly he still can be in solo q. | ||
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AsnSensation
Germany24009 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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