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On April 15 2015 09:24 Slusher wrote:
I don't get why people can't accept that the game is ok like this, in fact it's at a high point in a long time for me, and I played all of the assasins
Personally I think it's great. Smite + teleport would only be toxic/bad, if it was the limiting factor for toplane champ pool, but as it is, it's currently a champ pool enhancer, allowing more champions to be played in toplane, without choking out champs out of toplane.
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I agree
like Smite dunks all over ignite and Exhuast on certian heros, but there are still roles/heros who get a lot out of both spells so it's not like they are just useless because of skirmishers. In order to take smite top, you have to drop Flash or TP, which is a huge commitment, there is a clear cost benefit to taking smite.
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On April 15 2015 09:30 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 09:24 Slusher wrote:
I don't get why people can't accept that the game is ok like this, in fact it's at a high point in a long time for me, and I played all of the assasins Personally I think it's great. Smite + teleport would only be toxic/bad, if it was the limiting factor for toplane champ pool, but as it is, it's currently a champ pool enhancer, allowing more champions to be played in toplane, without choking out champs out of toplane.
Serious question, because I haven't really looked into it, but who does it actually bring back as a meta pick outside of Shyvana?
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On April 15 2015 09:46 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 09:30 wei2coolman wrote:On April 15 2015 09:24 Slusher wrote:
I don't get why people can't accept that the game is ok like this, in fact it's at a high point in a long time for me, and I played all of the assasins Personally I think it's great. Smite + teleport would only be toxic/bad, if it was the limiting factor for toplane champ pool, but as it is, it's currently a champ pool enhancer, allowing more champions to be played in toplane, without choking out champs out of toplane. Serious question, because I haven't really looked into it, but who does it actually bring back as a meta pick outside of Shyvana?
IIRC flandre tried it with Trundle.
People are still experimenting with it, it seems volibear does really well with the new change.
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On April 15 2015 05:22 JimmiC wrote:Voli top smite tele from gold 4 to gold 2. + Show Spoiler +I would be interested to know how it works at higher skill levels.
I have tried it a few times in my games (Im low diamond) and I really prefer flash - ingite still.
One of the mains reasons to play voli top is how much kill pressure you have early game and with smite, tp you don't have any. You will never get onto a decent player if they are ranged without flash in lane and you have to play much safer because if their jungler comes you are basically fucked.
Once I finished the cinderhulk I felt really strong but not as much as I would be if I snowballed my lane like usual. It just felt like a shitty version of smite/tp shyvanna.
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On April 15 2015 09:24 Slusher wrote:
I don't get why people can't accept that the game is ok like this, in fact it's at a high point in a long time for me, and I played all of the assasins
Because it eliminates the whole point of a series of crappy jungle changes, meaning we should just go back to the superior S2 jungle, with oracles removed from the game.
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On April 15 2015 09:25 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 08:10 sob3k wrote:
Well,
You win teamfight:
Enemy is dead, you have free map.
You lose teamfight:
You are dead.
You lose but escape as the tank:
You can't really do anything but farm, not like you can tower dive solo or do dragon. Its gonna take too long and warmogs doesn't give that much regen.
They lose and someone escapes:
maybe you can push something more with regen along with your carries that they would be scared to do without you.
Thats a pretty niche win-more situation to base an entire defensive item purchase on over other options. Not to mention that unless you are garen the regen really isn't that amazing, it takes quite a while to get back to health if you just came out of a teamfight and are really low. It takes well over 80 seconds to get 50% of your HP back, respawn aint that long.
Well its more like You get in a skirmish: neither enemy is dead, you have a contested map which you can use to push/clear minions/whatever. If you have warmogs you can regen and push with your team. You can soak a bit of poke and still be a tank for your team. With an other HP item you cannot, unless you're garen. Basically the HP differential for FoTM is 100 - 4/second. In 25 seconds of not being at full HP the HP differential is flipped and warmogs starts being better. Unless you're able to utilize the entirety of the active shield every 60 seconds.
if respawn is like 35 seconds, warmogs+base is only going to heal you about 20% by the very end of that. You will be going around at like 20% hp unless you were already healthy after the fight. Its not enough regen. Meanwhile if the enemy bought homeguard they can be back with full HP in 35 seconds.
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@Ketera,
Late game Volibear damage is primarily done through thornmail and gromp buff. His early - mid game damage typically comes from his spells which is where the Warmogs damage is more important. On top of that you can also factor in Voli's passive giving him hp regen based off of his max hp. Also, if we're looking at early to mid game skirmishes where Voli will take mixed amounts of damage Warmogs is the best item for the job since it ensures just about no one will ever be able to burst you down. You're also forgetting the bonus hp cinderhulk gives you when factoring in the hp total from Warmogs.
@sob3k
No it's to keep pressure on the map. Typically after I win a fight or skirmish I wait around while my team sieges a tower to keep counter engage pressure on the map. Also it takes 38 seconds to heal from 1hp to full hp with Warmogs not including base hp regen.
@Alaric
I usually pick up Warmogs as a second item on junglers. Part of the problem building FM vs Warmogs is the recipe. Warmogs just gives you more hp and makes you harder to kill as you build it along with not needing much AD to do your job early-mid game anyway.
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On April 15 2015 10:05 Sonnington wrote:
@sob3k
No it's to keep pressure on the map. Typically after I win a fight or skirmish I wait around while my team sieges a tower to keep counter engage pressure on the map. Also it takes 38 seconds to heal from 1hp to full hp with Warmogs not including base hp regen.
@ 3%hp per 5 (acel mogs regen that takes 8 seconds to get to)
100% / 3% = 33
each 3% takes 5 seconds
33*5 = 165 seconds to heal to full without counting 8 seconds of low regen without taking damage.
its not HP per 1, its HP per 5
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On April 15 2015 10:10 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 10:05 Sonnington wrote:
@sob3k
No it's to keep pressure on the map. Typically after I win a fight or skirmish I wait around while my team sieges a tower to keep counter engage pressure on the map. Also it takes 38 seconds to heal from 1hp to full hp with Warmogs not including base hp regen. @ 3%hp per 5 (acel mogs regen that takes 8 seconds to get to) 100% / 3% = 33 each 3% takes 5 seconds 33*5 = 165 seconds to heal to full. its not HP per 1, its HP per 5
My mistake. I still find it quite effective though.
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On April 15 2015 10:14 Sonnington wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 10:10 sob3k wrote:On April 15 2015 10:05 Sonnington wrote:
@sob3k
No it's to keep pressure on the map. Typically after I win a fight or skirmish I wait around while my team sieges a tower to keep counter engage pressure on the map. Also it takes 38 seconds to heal from 1hp to full hp with Warmogs not including base hp regen. @ 3%hp per 5 (acel mogs regen that takes 8 seconds to get to) 100% / 3% = 33 each 3% takes 5 seconds 33*5 = 165 seconds to heal to full. its not HP per 1, its HP per 5 My mistake. I still find it quite effective though.
Even getting 20% of your hp back is huge as a tank. Not to mention there are plenty of times now where there are teamfights or skirmishes where no one dies, but one team is forced to back, having warmogs means you can stay around and apply map pressure. For example, this tends to happen a lot around dragon, where 4 or 5 people show up, and there's a small teamfight, your team gets unfavorable trade, you're hovering around like maybe 15% of your hp? You can run up mid lane, shove that out, at least deny some cs into turret, then run straight up to top lane and do the same, by that time you'll be like 50%+, by the time enemy toplaner returns, and you'll have enough hp that they can't really threaten a kill.
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Something else to consider in this whole Warmogs debate is that if you do go back and homeguards back to the position you originally were, there is still a time window where you're at base and not doing anything else on the map. Not to say that this invalidates the Homeguards discussion, but just something to consider.
Also, if Warmogs takes 190 (38*5) seconds (or 3 minutes and 10 seconds) to heal you up to full, am I correct in assuming that Warmogs is your only source of health regen in this calculation? Because if so, there are other things that could potentially speed up the recovery time. Such things include champion base health regeneration or other items that also give out health regeneration, like Tiamat or Banshee's. So it would take less than 3 minutes and 10 seconds, but I'm not sure by how much.
I'll maybe do some number crunching tonight and post my results.
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On April 15 2015 10:17 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 10:14 Sonnington wrote:On April 15 2015 10:10 sob3k wrote:On April 15 2015 10:05 Sonnington wrote:
@sob3k
No it's to keep pressure on the map. Typically after I win a fight or skirmish I wait around while my team sieges a tower to keep counter engage pressure on the map. Also it takes 38 seconds to heal from 1hp to full hp with Warmogs not including base hp regen. @ 3%hp per 5 (acel mogs regen that takes 8 seconds to get to) 100% / 3% = 33 each 3% takes 5 seconds 33*5 = 165 seconds to heal to full. its not HP per 1, its HP per 5 My mistake. I still find it quite effective though. Even getting 20% of your hp back is huge as a tank. Not to mention there are plenty of times now where there are teamfights or skirmishes where no one dies, but one team is forced to back, having warmogs means you can stay around and apply map pressure. For example, this tends to happen a lot around dragon, where 4 or 5 people show up, and there's a small teamfight, your team gets unfavorable trade, you're hovering around like maybe 15% of your hp? You can run up mid lane, shove that out, at least deny some cs into turret, then run straight up to top lane and do the same, by that time you'll be like 50%+, by the time enemy toplaner returns, and you'll have enough hp that they can't really threaten a kill.
In that situation though you probably won't be able to avoid all damage, either random poke or minions. If you take one hit you end up at pitiful 1%hp5, and you end up only regening like 8%....
Its really really unimpressive.
On April 15 2015 10:24 Frudgey wrote:
Something else to consider in this whole Warmogs debate is that if you do go back and homeguards back to the position you originally were, there is still a time window where you're at base and not doing anything else on the map. Not to say that this invalidates the Homeguards discussion, but just something to consider.
Also, if Warmogs takes 190 (38*5) seconds (or 3 minutes and 10 seconds) to heal you up to full, am I correct in assuming that Warmogs is your only source of health regen in this calculation? Because if so, there are other things that could potentially speed up the recovery time. Such things include champion base health regeneration or other items that also give out health regeneration, like Tiamat or Banshee's. So it would take less than 3 minutes and 10 seconds, but I'm not sure by how much.
I'll maybe do some number crunching tonight and post my results.
Yeah, its bad to be out of action for 35s, but it may be better to be gone for 35 and then at full, than stick around at 15% for that time. Especially if it takes 15 seconds for the enemy to realize you are gone. Plus you have only spent 475g on homeguard and actually have an efficient defensive item.
The calc was only considering warmogs, not base regen or anything else, but its also assuming the max rate of warmogs instantly without ramp up time and without any interruption at any point, so my guess is that its not far off, and probably optimistic on really high hp characters.
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Playing Garen for the first time that I can remember (I know I've played every hero at least once but I don't remember actually doing it) because of the recent TL Garen hype, wish me luck
update:nothing really happened we just kinda won lol
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Okay for my own amusement I'm going to post some Math related to Health Regeneration here.
+ Show Spoiler [The Maths] +Alright for these calculations I'm going to use Darius as my example, as he is objectively the best champion in League. All the information that I use will be from the League of Legends Wiki. Also, I'm going to assume that Darius is level 18. I'm also going to work with Health per second, and not Health per five seconds. Furthermore, I am excluding all rune and masteries that may affect Health Regeneration. Disclaimer: Darius has the second highest base health regeneration in the game, and I don't think many champions will build like Darius. Because of this, I don't know how relevant my findings will be. Alright let's crunch some numbers. So Darius's Health Regeneration is 5.2. At level 18 with no items Darius has 2163 health. This means it takes him (2163/5.2) = 416 seconds (rounded up) for him to fully recover from 0 hp. So 6 minutes, and 56 seconds. So basically seven minutes. But this doesn't tell us anything because Darius is sure to have bought SOMETHING by the time he's level 18. So let's make this interesting and add some items. Suppose that I was a smart individual and bought Ravenous Hydra, Banshee's Veil, Face of the Mountain, Frozen Heart, Triforce and Mercury Treads. This is going to put Darius at 3363 Hit Points (500 from Face of the Mountain, 250 from Trinity Force and 450 from Banshee's), and give him 20.8 Health Regeneration. (+100% Base Health Regeneration from Ravenous, Banshee's and Face of the Mountain. So now it will take him (3113/20.8) = 162 seconds (rounded up) for him to heal from 0 hp to 3113 hp. So two minutes and 42 seconds. I don't think that's bad at all, especially considering the items he has. You guys seem to be fans of those items so I put them on there. But now let's look at the build that I normally do on Darius. For the uneducated, I'll have Ravenous Hydra, Frozen Heart, Warmog's, Spirit Visage, Triforce, and boots of some kind. This will put Darius at 3613 Hit Points. (800 from Warmogs, 250 from Trinity, and 400 from Spirit Visage) Calculating the Health Regeneration will be a bit more work. Ravenous Hydra, Spirit Visage and Warmogs will all affect Darius's health regeneration. Forgetting about Warmogs and the PASSIVE from Spirit Visage, Darius will have a Health Regeneration value of 15.6. Now Warmogs can either give out 1% of maximum hp per five seconds or 3% of maximum hp per five seconds. So that's 0.2% per second or 0.6% per second. Using Darius's Maximum HP (3613), we get that Warmogs (by itself) regenerates 7.226 hp per second or 21.678 hp per second. Adding that to Darius's Health Regeneration value, we get that he either has 22.826 Health Regeneration per second or 37.278 Health Regeneration per second. But then we need to calculate the Spirit Visage passive. Then that means that Darius then has 27.3912 Health Regeneration per second or 44.7336 Health Regeneration per second. These should be his totals as far as Health Regeneration goes. Alright let us suppose now that Darius is at 0 hp and wants to recover from full. Assuming that he takes no damage, he'll regenerate (27.3912*8) = 219 Hit points. This is rounded down. So Darius then needs to recover (3613 - 219) = 3394 hp. So it takes Darius (3394/44.7336) = 76 seconds (rounded up) to recover that remaining hp. So with my build, it takes Darius (76 + 8) = 84 seconds to completely recover. So give him a minute and a half of no fighting and he's good to go. That being said, I realize that if you're going to go a minute and a half without fighting you might just want to consider backing!
I'm not really trying to prove anything here, this is just a fun experiment. Also I didn't double check any of my math so I could be way wrong!
Also I don't think we can gather any meaningful data from this as it's specific to one champion and I made a lot of assumptions. That, and the hypothetical scenario of this happening is extremely unlikely. Still, it was fun to write!
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so eve seems pretty fucking strong right now, the few i played with dominated and carried the game :o
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ayy, if you go for ghostblade as adc, do you sell it for a pd when you hit your 6 items or is it good enough to keep for the whole game?
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On April 15 2015 13:28 IMoperator wrote:
ayy, if you go for ghostblade as adc, do you sell it for a pd when you hit your 6 items or is it good enough to keep for the whole game?
Keep it. If I'm hitting 6 items on ADC, I'm selling boots for a PD or Zephyr.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/quSE6VU.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b5j8eiA.jpg)
