EPTThough in the defense of both these champs, at least you can tell good Rivens/Irelias from bad ones, so there is some skill beyond the faceroll parts.
[Patch 5.5] Bard General Discussion - Page 29
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
Though in the defense of both these champs, at least you can tell good Rivens/Irelias from bad ones, so there is some skill beyond the faceroll parts. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On March 19 2015 00:00 mr_tolkien wrote: Sion is up there for his top lane performance, definitely. It's funny seeing how all this is completely not correlated to the actual bans in soloQ : http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=bans&range=monthly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=ranked Irelia #2 most banned champ. Kalista up there too. And Riven not so far. It's typical soloq. Damage is valued and feared over tankability. The blind adherence to "don't focus tanks." being shouted at ADC who are attacking the only "safe" target is a symptom of it. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
On March 19 2015 00:52 mr_tolkien wrote: Every melee hero with nukes is "faceroll" in that if you get hit by their rotation you die. That's kinda expected. Just position properly and don't get hit by their spell rotation. Except Irelia can reach you from a screen away if there's a caster minion in between. And no champ that doesn't build full damage should have the ability to delete anyone. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On March 19 2015 01:00 Osmoses wrote: Except Irelia can reach you from a screen away if there's a caster minion in between. And no champ that doesn't build full damage should have the ability to delete anyone. They only have the ability to delete people who didn't build any defense. That's how it should be. On March 19 2015 00:53 Ketara wrote: Those ban lists are for last month, btw. Last week is pretty much the same though, trends take quite some time to change in LoL. | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On March 19 2015 01:09 Osmoses wrote: Kill, yes, delete, no. Irelia does have a 2s stun at melee range and quite a nice burst after Triforce, but if you can CC her (knockups do wonder)/get peel during that time, you won't die. If you're a sitting duck though, yes you're gonna have a bad time when a champion with one of the most expensive damage item in game runs at you, especially just after he got it. But such is life. If Irelia gets her Triforce around 15 minutes, she'll be incredibly squishy in teamfights and an easy focus. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
When both Riven and her opponent reach 6 with just their starting items, her full combo is about enough to 100-0 him in most cases. Irelia deletes people who don't have the HP pool to survive a few swings from Hiten Style, basically. It's a timing thing and naturally goes away as champions either build (physical E)HP or gain more levels (AD carries lack both so they have the longest window of vulnerability to her). Alternatively, when allies increase cc duration or shield values (from levels or gaining the scaling stat of the shield). It's fine because it's a timing thing and she's designed around it (well it probably wasn't on purpose but it actually works decently now). Lategame Maokai will deal more damage to frontliners (W), be harder to kill, peel better or be able to dive the enemy team better so he'll be more valuable for example. She also doesn't kill you instantly, and part of her damage is concentrated during the stun from her E, so if you have someone to protect you it'll be easier to get away from her (she'll still zone you, though). Riot say they have issues with 100-0ing people, but the issue isn't the oneshot, it's in the fact that you can't react to it. That's why they removed the silence on Talon's E instead of making his damage take longer to apply (with the side-effect of making him unable to kill LB if Distortion, Distortion², or the R-versions are available). She does snowball pretty hard and her midgame spike is high enough that she can straight-up zone most squishies if they're alone at that point. Edit: as mrtolk says, Irelia is still squishier than a champion with sunfire or something like that first, and she kills you slower than Hydra J4 for example. The issue is that if you try to focus her it leaves the enemy mid free to dump his damage, eg. it's not Irelia, it's the enemy team having 2 major threats at that point (when one running Maokai or Sion only has 1). She's also less squishy than a LB or Lissandra. Kinda how a team with Yasuo+Tristana+Ahri late game is harder to deal with than a team with Corki, Renekton and Lulu. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On March 19 2015 01:26 kongoline wrote: the problem with irelia is she doesnt have any lane hard- counters, shes annoying as fuck to play against as a squishy champion and only way to be safe is to play tanks like sion,renekton , shes also "assassinish" midgame which lets her snowball carry games alone, whenever i face irelia im "fml" forced to pick sion and rely on my ADC to carry which i hate -.- Heimerdinger. Good luck. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On March 19 2015 01:26 kongoline wrote: the problem with irelia is she doesnt have any lane hard- counters, shes annoying as fuck to play against as a squishy champion and only way to be safe is to play tanks like sion,renekton , shes also "assassinish" midgame which lets her snowball carry games alone, whenever i face irelia im "fml" forced to pick sion and rely on my ADC to carry which i hate -.- There are tons of champions that shit on Irelia in laning, including squishy champions. Riven/Tryndamere/Panth/Liss/Rumble come to mind. | ||
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
On March 19 2015 01:30 mr_tolkien wrote: There are tons of champions that shit on Irelia in laning, including squishy champions. Riven/Tryndamere/Panth/Liss/Rumble come to mind. I had problems with Vlad as an Irelia today. I felt like a noob. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 19 2015 01:26 kongoline wrote: the problem with irelia is she doesnt have any lane hard- counters, shes annoying as fuck to play against as a squishy champion and only way to be safe is to play tanks like sion,renekton , shes also "assassinish" midgame which lets her snowball carry games alone, whenever i face irelia im "fml" forced to pick sion and rely on my ADC to carry which i hate -.- I think darius is supposed to shit on her in lane. On March 19 2015 01:37 Doctorbeat wrote: I had problems with Vlad as an Irelia today. I felt like a noob. lol. the vlad must of seriously been outplaying you for that to happen. just blame your jungler. | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On March 18 2015 18:55 739 wrote: Morg was being played top. Also just saw that reddit thread with some Skin concepts from VegaColors. ![[image loading]](http://apollo-na-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/1426621331103/SkinSketches3%5BWIP%5D.jpg) This Azir skin is totally out of mind. Also Underworld Azir looks like OD from Doto. That Toy Ruler Azir is first day buy status for me. They really need to make that skin. | ||
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
On March 19 2015 01:44 wei2coolman wrote: I think darius is supposed to shit on her in lane. lol. the vlad must of seriously been outplaying you for that to happen. just blame your jungler. To be fair he had diamond border and was high plat I. I did get shat on tho haha. Might have to do with my build path too, rushed sheen. Maybe I should have gone for some early mr. Meanwhile I have gold border and am Plat 3, and don't play top that often. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Edit: I may be dumb as a brick for an Irelia main, but I've never managed to beat a Vlad who wasn't straight-up awful (even obvious bad ones I've lost against). Feels like he autowins by outsustaining my damage before my cooldowns come back up if I don't utterly shit on him before level 6-7, and I fail to do that because it just takes so much mana to trade at early levels with her mana pool and if I push too hard he's going to lazily farm under tower and I won't be able to punish him for it. Are there specific runes/masteries/starting items adjustements to make? Do you try to rush level 2 (good luck, he's ranged) and force a trade on him then keep the pressure? Do you take ignite and try to all-in him at level 4 or 5? Irelia is at the high end of the spectrum in terms of scaling during the laning phase. Few champions can bruteforce her, fewer can on even farm. So what do you do? You prevent her from reaching that point on even farm. + Show Spoiler + There are a bunch of champions who can bully her in lane or who simply hold an advantage pre-6 or pre-Sheen such that if you play well enough you'll zone her/slow down her farming enough that when she gets her items you've grown too big for her to close the gap. In that sense she's closer to Nasus or Vlad than to Riven: a ramping laner you have to punish (with a steeper cliff and fall-off). She's got burst damage and plays like an assassin in the midgame so people focus on that aspect and don't see the similarity, though (and to be fair she snowballs harder than Nasus who can't zone/all-in as aggressively with a lead). - Darius, Fiora, a very aggressive Pantheon, etc. are stronger than her pretty long. Jax with a stacked passive, ven pre-6. - Tryndamere with built-up rage because you have to respect the RNG autowin (she's stronger than him for a time once she gets Phage+Sheen because she can survive until his ult ends, once he gets enough damage the reverse happens). - Riven, Rumble, Renekton are stronger than her early on but she outscales them pretty fast on even farm (part of why a single kill/assist/recall to reach 6 unscathed can be enough to snowball her, also save for Renekton they're squishy) so they have to leverage that. Same goes for Nidalee, Teemo, etc. (with the "squishy so dies fast if you don't murder her" up to 11). - Jax, Malphite, Nasus have the tools to either outscale her, or reduce her damage enough that they'll whittle her down/bully her once she's oom. I'm not sure about Lissandra. I think it comes down to positioning: there's the whole "root her with W when she goes in, walk away, kite with Q" but you'll still take a lot of damage if Irelia stuns you and autos you while rooted (+ Q). Irelia's E has longer range than her autos so if she casts it at max range and gets rooted during the animation she'll waste half the duration unable to auto. But if Liss W's first you can do it again while it's on cd, and otherwise you use your better base MS to walk in melee range after Qing the minion. Or do you mean that Lissandra bullies Irelia hard enough from level 1 that she has kill potential on her? | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On March 19 2015 03:00 kongoline wrote: ^ get off my dick i have my biases and hate some designs (like invisible champions) but i didnt write a word about irelia being toxic i merely expressed opinion why i think shes banned so much, in fact i think she shouldnt be nerfed shes only decent melee bruiser left in game who isnt trash in this more and more ranged dominated meta Hecarim and Fizz would like a word with you. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4124 Posts
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