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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
On March 19 2015 05:18 AlterKot wrote: Like I said it's my go-to damage item on Kennen. Really on Kennen? Like before you even get Zhonyas? I feel like Zhonya/Void Staff is still going to be a stronger two item combo. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On March 19 2015 04:53 Jek wrote: Luden's on Evelynn, yay or nay? I mean she can proc it roughly every 4th Q, really want this item to be good on some champion that can spam it's proc. Speaking of Evelynn do you still go for the AD jungle item on her? Scip-senpai halp pls  Can't you apply Lichbane on every 1th Q though? | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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aurawashere
Canada454 Posts
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
I mean given TF's skillset DFG made a lot more sense than Luden's and yet DFT was a niche build because his standard build is just so good. | ||
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IamPryda
United States1186 Posts
On March 19 2015 05:00 Ketara wrote: Champions that I've seen build Ludens and have it make sense to me so far: Lux Twisted Fate Nidalee I have been building it on kassadin not sure how I feel about it yet but seems good | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On March 19 2015 04:53 Jek wrote: Luden's on Evelynn, yay or nay? I mean she can proc it roughly every 4th Q, really want this item to be good on some champion that can spam it's proc. Speaking of Evelynn do you still go for the AD jungle item on her? Scip-senpai halp pls I think you're still supposed to go AD item on Eve but I neither tested nor done math I am not convinced by Luden's, her AP ratios are kinda meh. I also don't really see how you're gonna get enough tankiness with her ever after building Luden's. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On March 19 2015 06:17 Scip wrote: I think you're still supposed to go AD item on Eve but I neither tested nor done math I am not convinced by Luden's, her AP ratios are kinda meh. I also don't really see how you're gonna get enough tankiness with her ever after building Luden's. I think Elder Lizard was the most popular jungle item on her Season 4. Even now more people build warrior on Eve than Magus. http://www.lolking.net/champions/Evelynn On March 19 2015 05:50 Ghost-z wrote: I feel like on any mana champion who can proc Lichbane its going to out damage Ludens against a single target. Runaan's is going to outdamage anything else if you want to count AoE damage, but in real games I find it rare that AoE damage items feels as good as they looks on paper. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On March 19 2015 05:32 AlterKot wrote: I said "damage item", Zhonya is survi :p But yeah it seems like Luden's does more damage than Void I dunno didn't actually run the math. It doesn't matter if Luden's does more damage than Void. Luden's does less damage than Deathcap so long as you get 2 Q's per Luden's proc. And once you have cap, Luden's does less damage than void in basically all instances* (Void will increase all damage by about 15% at minimum, so, if you have 1.0 total ratio the break even is like 600 base damage on abilities which almost everyone will hit. If you have over 1.0 total ratio this value decreases) Luden's does less damage for TF Stun/Q if you have E ready at basically all points in the game**. Plus it clears waves worse(it overkills melee minions which you would clear with red card anyway, in order to do less damage to the ranged creeps), plus it doesn't scale with lichbane as well. Luden's is in a place where you only but it if 1) You really need the move speed any can't get it anywhere else 2) You've built Cap/Void already and want a pure damage item and don't auto attack enough to make Lichbane worth while/You already have lichbane The only way for Luden's to be more effective than Cap is if you're poking with a single ability and have no worries about needing to land the rest of your abilities(and have no utility scaling on them). BUT! If you're a champion which does that then you're probably going to want CDR instead, so you can use your one ability more often. Which means that Morello's beats it. *though this is actually due to level scaling and not due to AP scaling. Deathcap's passive or raw AP values do not impact voidstaff's damage calculation versus Luden's. **Breakeven is 281 AP for "E passive Proc + Gold Card + Q". So technically right after you buy it, if you buy it first or right after Morello) you can do a bit more damage with Echo (until you get a second Q or W or E off). But this will quickly fade as you're building your next item. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
Some other offmeta supports mid might also benefit from luden's clear speed. Maybe Nami mid or something idk. Q max Kennen would have more clearing power. W max already has enough. I'd definitely rush Zhonyas against an AD lane opponent though. Luden's main advantages over other items are that it increases your poke damage, damage over time, and helps you clear better. Unfortunately I don't think any champs are all about a single ability poke right now. Some people might disagree and say Nid or Xerath are. Lichbane and Deathcap provide more damage over time with full rotations. While it probably helps you clear slightly better than deathcap, it's not that much better on a lot of champs. And no champion has horrendous clear speeds that cause them to lose games. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Single Target Damage AOE Damage CDR Void is the best AoE vs MR. Cap is the best AoE otherwise. Lichbane is the best single target. Because this item only has damage on it it means that well, either its better than or worse than Cap. And for the most part well, its worse than cap. Cap does more damage in almost all situations on almost all champions. There technically is a range where Echo is stronger than cap but its really really thin. And its basically always going to be that way unless they seriously buff the damage. Compare it to Shiv. Shiv is a good item for AD's who want wave clear because you can attack a lot and a lot faster and because you rely on your single target damage to clear waves. But there basically aren't any mid AP champions that rely on single target damage to clear waves that don't get more effective damage just building Cap. It would be like putting the shiv proc on an AD only item and asking people to buy it instead of IE. Well either its better than IE/BT or its worse and you're only going to buy one until super late. There are simply no AP champions who lack an AoE Ability to wave clear except Ezreal... And Luden's Echo does not work with Mystic Shot since it does not apply spell effects do he can't make use of it. Maybe Max Q Kennen gets some use out of it for clear, but only if he doesn't kill the creep in one hit with Q anyway The only champions which can realistically make use of it are champions which aren't expected to wave clear. But they're either going to buy Lichbane instead to do single target damage, or they're going to have utility scaling and so like the cap anway. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Lux Twisted Fate Nidalee Ziggs I'd need to see math for Kennen and Kassadin. Xerath too, his ratios are pretty high. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On March 19 2015 08:26 Ketara wrote: After all this discussion I can update my list to: Lux Twisted Fate Nidalee Ziggs I'd need to see math for Kennen and Kassadin. Xerath too, his ratios are pretty high. what are you dropping on TF, hat? | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
It's in a weird meta spot where it doesn't provide necessary utility, mana, CDR or the most damage. Niche as hell unless they change something or people find some merit to dropping Zhonya's or Morello's. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On mages with lower AP ratios, as a first item or a second item it's going to outperform Deathcap, even if Deathcap will outperform it at 6 items. It also provides movespeed which lets you roam better and abuse a mid game timing etc. Look at Ludens in comparison to Deathcap like you'd look at Shiv in comparison to Phantom Dancer on ADCs. At 6 items, PD is usually superior in terms of raw damage output. But getting Shiv at 2 items gives you a stronger timing earlier in the game, which you can use to get a lead. It's not as pronounced as that because PD and Shiv are so similar that it's easier to make a direct comparison, but it's a similar idea. That's how I'm looking at Ludens, anyway. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
and if you are implying it as a mid game item, Dcap is rarely a mid game item for TF, generally on TF you go cdr/mana into Lich for split zhonya for team fight. Then third item you can consider hat, but because of the cost and slow build up of hat it's generally pretty risky (in the sense that mr might be present before you finish) if you are going to take that risk you are generally better off completing whatever you didn't build 2nd and which point it's undoubtedly void time. I guess I'm saying hat isn't exactly a mid game item on TF either. I actually really like the comparison to shiv I think it illuminates a use for the item that I had not considered but I still don't like it for TF + Show Spoiler + Even in last night's CJ game when Coco was fed out of his mind in a stomp, he opted for both Zhonya and Lich before getting dcap 4th | ||
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