On March 19 2015 13:23 Ketara wrote: I think the thing that you guys aren't realizing about Ludens is that you're comparing it to end game item builds instead of looking at it as more of a mid game option.
On mages with lower AP ratios, as a first item or a second item it's going to outperform Deathcap, even if Deathcap will outperform it at 6 items. It also provides movespeed which lets you roam better and abuse a mid game timing etc.
No actually i was comparing it as a first or second item and noting that the breakpoints for mages with even half decent ratios (or who get multiple rotations off per luden's proc) easily out perform with Deathcap.
The AP/Ratio range for which Luden's beats deathcap isn't "mid game" and its so amazingly slim its barely worth considering. For someone with a 2.0 ratio per proc the breakpoint is 220 AP. For TF who gets (E proc, W, Q) rotation off once its 289 AP. So if you run AP Quints, and flat AP blues and you're level 10 with Morello's and Luden's/Cap and 1 dragon buff you will have 267 AP. Which means that Luden's is better for a whole 600 gold including its purchase price advantage
Basically no one comes out on top for damage on Luden's unless all you're doing is poking and your ratio is relatively low on that poke (and you're a master of making it hit the right target and not creeps when you're poking)
I mean, it would be great for Ezreal... But Ezreal can't use it because his Q doesn't proc spell effects.
Comparing it to end game item builds it does really well. Since there are no other 120 AP items that have any kind of damage boost getting Luden's after Cap (for a poke Heavy champion this could be better than Void) or after cap and void easily does the highest damage of any other item.
It's not really worth arguing about, but you're giving 0 value to the movespeed (which is a huge deal, and a bigger deal on TF than most champions), and ignoring that Void Staff will outdamage Deathcap here, so the three item timing would be Morello - Ludens - Void, not Morello - Ludens - Deathcap. Or possibly even Morello - Ludens - Lich Bane even, who knows.
Is Morello really considered standard on TF now? I know people are building it, but is it all that required? It seems like mana regen is not really something he needs. Is the CDR that valuable?
The mana regen is something he needs to keep up with modern midlaners in pushing power (at least the ones that won't turn him to a puddle in midlane like Leblanc and Ahri). Blue cards are pretty rare in the majority of situations after a while. Also the CDR is more ults, and actually successful ults because 2nd Gold Card.
Also those builds don't make sense, because Zhonyas is core. If you weren't going Morellos first you would almost certainly be going either Zhonas first or Abyssal>Zhonyas. Even if you aren't planning on doing a Port Initiation its still core, because you still need to be in auto range (hes no Caitlyn) to teamfight, and he can't do his damage from distance like Xerath.
And even in these "sieges" you'd want Lichbane because towers exist. And Dragon. And Baron.
Most high level TF players (probuilds) go morello to zhonya or lichbane to whichever they didn't buy.
Lich because it's highest single target damage for him (.5 ratio per rotatio is > caps effect). Zhonya because it allows you to ult-zhonya cancel or ult-card-q zhonya to initiate a teamfight.
After you have lich your base damage to ratio is pretty out of whack (since lich has the amazingly low 100 AP to double damage stack) so many players go cap before void but looks 6 one half dozen to other there.
Is TF even popular in competitive at the moment? The most recent games I saw were the Gambit getting stomped in IEM rendition of TF. Just curious about regions I don't watch.
his worst match ups are pretty bad at the moment, so I'm surprised he isn't seen more.
Only really Zed is hard for him and thats only if you fuck up early, since TF isn't hurt by rushing Zhonya (usually a good indicator of someone Zed is bad vs.)
On March 19 2015 20:09 JonnyLaw wrote: Is TF even popular in competitive at the moment? The most recent games I saw were the Gambit getting stomped in IEM rendition of TF. Just curious about regions I don't watch.
CJ coco used it yesterday and it went well, tf vs xerath by the way.
Yeah I'm going to venture a guess to say that morellos > zhonyas > void staff or morellos > void staff > zhonyas are better builds than anything with a Ludens, but I'm by no means an expert on the state of the game this patch, Then again I'm wagering that nobody else here is either.
I only buy Morellos if there's someone on the other team that we'll need the passive for, i.e. Aatrox or Soraka etc and I tend to buy Athenes if I'm against a burst mage in lane, but against everything else I've started to completely forego mana reg items on Ziggs. I find that for teamfights it's more important that my first combo does alot of damage than being able to do it again over and over. So, I get (in order): Luden, Cap, (Void Staff & T2 boots), Zhonyas, Lich bane. I've stopped building tear, ever, because if you invest in tear you will be behind in the arms race all game. Seems every game I got tear people kept getting away with a sliver of health. Stopped buying tear, started going on killing sprees.
Uh... did he have Smite, W at level 1, a mix of AD (or AS) marks, armour seals, CDR glyphs, AP quints, he sets up 3 fully stacked Ws before the dragon spawns, then start using them to sustain himself while he autos the dragon to death?
This was posted in the TSM thread, but I really wanna talk about it...
Does Thorin not pay for heat? Everytime I see these videos he is wearing a full snow jacket and scarf. Is England (is he there??) that cold?? Am I just exaggerating!? I guess I wear a hoodie and blanket at my computer.. but this is Maine! For real. How fucking cold is it? Is it a fashion statement??? I am just so perplexed.
He is ashamed of his figure so he always hides it beneath as many layers of clothing as he can plausibly wear
On March 20 2015 00:03 Alaric wrote: Uh... did he have Smite, W at level 1, a mix of AD (or AS) marks, armour seals, CDR glyphs, AP quints, he sets up 3 fully stacked Ws before the dragon spawns, then start using them to sustain himself while he autos the dragon to death?
He had smite, AS reds and flat armor in rest. 0/17/13 masteries for the heal bonus in defense I guess. No idea how he did, but I suspect he put 3 heals at pit and could then cycle them when it went off cooldown.
We all just defaulted to thinking he was trolling/afk when we saw it and he didn't show in lane.
On March 20 2015 00:03 Alaric wrote: Uh... did he have Smite, W at level 1, a mix of AD (or AS) marks, armour seals, CDR glyphs, AP quints, he sets up 3 fully stacked Ws before the dragon spawns, then start using them to sustain himself while he autos the dragon to death?
He had smite, AS reds and flat armor in rest. 0/17/13 masteries for the heal bonus in defense I guess. No idea how he did, but I suspect he put 3 heals at pit and could then cycle them when it went off cooldown.
We all just defaulted to thinking he was trolling/afk when we saw it and he didn't show in lane.
This was posted in the TSM thread, but I really wanna talk about it...
Does Thorin not pay for heat? Everytime I see these videos he is wearing a full snow jacket and scarf. Is England (is he there??) that cold?? Am I just exaggerating!? I guess I wear a hoodie and blanket at my computer.. but this is Maine! For real. How fucking cold is it? Is it a fashion statement??? I am just so perplexed.
Its a cultural thing, I know a ton of older british people who feel the same. You just wear your jacket in the house and like only turn it up at night or sommat like that.
In terms of the Analysis, Thorin has been weakening his own arguments recently by creating the fictional "person that doesnt get it" and hasnt really been giving very many examples of his stance, mostly in his videos and not in his print work. Its pretty sad because it comes off as a broken record and its a pity; hes a pretty bloody clever weasel of a guy so it comes off as a bit of a waste. Just trying to get through parts of his incoming aggression vid recently was just brutal imo for example. That being said I love just having radio in the background while I league so Ill still view all his stuff for the most part, it just would be so much better if he stepped up his game in that regard.
That aside, I personally love the idea of Ludens but its niche is a bit confused. I get the midgame item to bolster ap Ratios on like Lux E, but I tried it on Karma and it seemed eh. I guess the requirements for it to be worth is to have like poor base damage+ multiple combat spells (or one short cd one) if you are ignoring the MS as a stat. If your not I think its probably going to get buffed a bit and then become essential to kite comps. Its alot of raw utility on one item - can think of a ton of occasions where i was at 380ms against hard engage who had 425 ms and got punished because its literally impossible to walk away from them if they get on top of you. Id buy an item with reduced damage to kite better in that scenario every time. Its probably also fantastic on AP Kog, so I kind of expect Faker to bring him out second season, stomp everyone and make it meta for 3-4 months. Or maybe We1less that guy has really been pushing champ boundaries.
On March 20 2015 04:41 Ghost-z wrote: Syndra building Ludens in the EU LCS.
seems to make sense
if there is one thing I have gathered about Luden's from my experences it's that it seems to be strongest when you can proc it with an instant AoE like Lux E or Syndra ball
This was posted in the TSM thread, but I really wanna talk about it...
Does Thorin not pay for heat? Everytime I see these videos he is wearing a full snow jacket and scarf. Is England (is he there??) that cold?? Am I just exaggerating!? I guess I wear a hoodie and blanket at my computer.. but this is Maine! For real. How fucking cold is it? Is it a fashion statement??? I am just so perplexed.
Its a cultural thing, I know a ton of older british people who feel the same. You just wear your jacket in the house and like only turn it up at night or sommat like that.
In terms of the Analysis, Thorin has been weakening his own arguments recently by creating the fictional "person that doesnt get it" and hasnt really been giving very many examples of his stance, mostly in his videos and not in his print work. Its pretty sad because it comes off as a broken record and its a pity; hes a pretty bloody clever weasel of a guy so it comes off as a bit of a waste. Just trying to get through parts of his incoming aggression vid recently was just brutal imo for example. That being said I love just having radio in the background while I league so Ill still view all his stuff for the most part, it just would be so much better if he stepped up his game in that regard.
Thorin is just producing too much content. With too few people. Incoming aggression is a decent idea, in principal, but Froskurinn is irrational with regards to the scene which she is an "expert" on and thorin doesn't care/want to/know enough to call her BS. SI is also theoretically good, but it always goes too long, but at least monte is only irrational with TSM. Plus he has all these "thoughts" videos every week so no subject really is left for him to talk about, unless he wanted to do videos about Winterfox.
On March 20 2015 00:03 Alaric wrote: Uh... did he have Smite, W at level 1, a mix of AD (or AS) marks, armour seals, CDR glyphs, AP quints, he sets up 3 fully stacked Ws before the dragon spawns, then start using them to sustain himself while he autos the dragon to death?
He had smite, AS reds and flat armor in rest. 0/17/13 masteries for the heal bonus in defense I guess. No idea how he did, but I suspect he put 3 heals at pit and could then cycle them when it went off cooldown.
We all just defaulted to thinking he was trolling/afk when we saw it and he didn't show in lane.
EPT
