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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
Same for Nid/Ziggs/Xerath. It's much more fitting for them though, because they wouldn't get Lichbane and all siege much harder anyway. Midgame poking with that 2 item timing would have interesting teamfight/siege potential. For TF, you could replace your boots for Luden's super-super late game for max burst, lololol. So it appears to have the most potential as a 2nd item buy or very late game for more AP ratios. | ||
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JonGalt
Pootie too good!4331 Posts
This was posted in the TSM thread, but I really wanna talk about it... Does Thorin not pay for heat? Everytime I see these videos he is wearing a full snow jacket and scarf. Is England (is he there??) that cold?? Am I just exaggerating!? I guess I wear a hoodie and blanket at my computer.. but this is Maine! For real. How fucking cold is it? Is it a fashion statement??? I am just so perplexed. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On March 19 2015 13:23 Ketara wrote: I think the thing that you guys aren't realizing about Ludens is that you're comparing it to end game item builds instead of looking at it as more of a mid game option. On mages with lower AP ratios, as a first item or a second item it's going to outperform Deathcap, even if Deathcap will outperform it at 6 items. It also provides movespeed which lets you roam better and abuse a mid game timing etc. No actually i was comparing it as a first or second item and noting that the breakpoints for mages with even half decent ratios (or who get multiple rotations off per luden's proc) easily out perform with Deathcap. The AP/Ratio range for which Luden's beats deathcap isn't "mid game" and its so amazingly slim its barely worth considering. For someone with a 2.0 ratio per proc the breakpoint is 220 AP. For TF who gets (E proc, W, Q) rotation off once its 289 AP. So if you run AP Quints, and flat AP blues and you're level 10 with Morello's and Luden's/Cap and 1 dragon buff you will have 267 AP. Which means that Luden's is better for a whole 600 gold including its purchase price advantage Basically no one comes out on top for damage on Luden's unless all you're doing is poking and your ratio is relatively low on that poke (and you're a master of making it hit the right target and not creeps when you're poking) I mean, it would be great for Ezreal... But Ezreal can't use it because his Q doesn't proc spell effects. Comparing it to end game item builds it does really well. Since there are no other 120 AP items that have any kind of damage boost getting Luden's after Cap (for a poke Heavy champion this could be better than Void) or after cap and void easily does the highest damage of any other item. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On March 19 2015 13:23 Ketara wrote: I think the thing that you guys aren't realizing about Ludens is that you're comparing it to end game item builds instead of looking at it as more of a mid game option. On mages with lower AP ratios, as a first item or a second item it's going to outperform Deathcap, even if Deathcap will outperform it at 6 items. It also provides movespeed which lets you roam better and abuse a mid game timing etc. Look at Ludens in comparison to Deathcap like you'd look at Shiv in comparison to Phantom Dancer on ADCs. At 6 items, PD is usually superior in terms of raw damage output. But getting Shiv at 2 items gives you a stronger timing earlier in the game, which you can use to get a lead. It's not as pronounced as that because PD and Shiv are so similar that it's easier to make a direct comparison, but it's a similar idea. That's how I'm looking at Ludens, anyway. ludens just feels weaker even as a midgame item given how the mechanic works i feel like it's a shitty implementation of a static shiv for mages. which doesn't really make sense because SS is designed for auto attack characters where luden's is the same concept just applied to mages without much adaption | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On March 19 2015 14:04 JonGalt wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUhz7DAcqSs This was posted in the TSM thread, but I really wanna talk about it... Does Thorin not pay for heat? Everytime I see these videos he is wearing a full snow jacket and scarf. Is England (is he there??) that cold?? Am I just exaggerating!? I guess I wear a hoodie and blanket at my computer.. but this is Maine! For real. How fucking cold is it? Is it a fashion statement??? I am just so perplexed. He is ashamed of his figure so he always hides it beneath as many layers of clothing as he can plausibly wear | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
45% from 37% yesterday and 30% three days before that. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
I think Bard auto wins if his jungler camps bottom. lol dem magical journey ganks. If there is no jungle presence bottom, then Bard-lane gets absolutely rolled. lol. Bard was tailor made to win Azingy games. Haha. Bard is weird, he is a rather weak roamer on his own, but i think he is probably the scariest 2 man roam in the game. You have no idea where 2 people can just pop out of, that is absolutely scary. I also think too many people trying to use Bard ult too cutely; I think Bard's should just like ult 3 random guys on the other team and then you just auto win fights. So many Bards trying to like Zhonya their ADC or some shit, who cares just take their back lane out of the fight. Turns any regular team fight into "LOL 2 people just walked into us 2v5! LOL the other three congo-lined into us!" Although, I could be wrong on that... I dont think i have seen a single Bard just straight up press R on the other team. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 19 2015 14:28 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Bard 45% from 37% yesterday and 30% three days before that. misrepresented, since this is only taken from pro's playing soloqueue, of which they naturally have higher winrates on ALL their champions. for example thresh has 54% winrate on probuilds.net, but in diamond for lolking.net, thresh is only at a 49% winrate. another example. braum on probuilds.net has 55% winrate, but for diamond for lolking.net braum is at 50%. Janna on probuilds 59% winrate, lolking only 51%. not very fair representation, especially considering other support picks. inb4 masters, same % differential shows up, diamond just happens to have more data points so winrates are more stable so i chose to use those. | ||
739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On March 19 2015 14:04 JonGalt wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUhz7DAcqSs This was posted in the TSM thread, but I really wanna talk about it... Does Thorin not pay for heat? Everytime I see these videos he is wearing a full snow jacket and scarf. Is England (is he there??) that cold?? Am I just exaggerating!? I guess I wear a hoodie and blanket at my computer.. but this is Maine! For real. How fucking cold is it? Is it a fashion statement??? I am just so perplexed. He might not. RE what thorin is saying: I disagree that WE didn't crush GE. WE out picked them and out played them. They exploited GE's weak early game and penchant for playing mid game champions by playing late scaling champions and winning the early game anyway. WE lost one really close game and then styled on GE. Maybe they were just the right team at the right time, and GE is only good because Korea doesn't know how to pick AD's other than Corki. They tried the same thing against TSM, because TSM also has had a historically weakish early game. Its why the bans in WE/GE game were similar to the bans in the WE/TSM game. They wanted to take away the lategame Lulu and Viktor, champions which can stall until they're hilarious. But TSM did not fall into the korean trap of having mid game spike champions all throughout their roster. And TSM identified and exploited WE's weaknesses. His argument seems to be pretty circular: WE is bad because WE lost to TSM and the other teams are bad because WE beat them so TSM's wins over them don't mean much... and GE was just a fluke because it had to be. Nah. Then he makes this really weird claim that it would have been better for the "TSM is good" argument if WE stomped them in the first game? Like what? I mean what? So you're saying that WE played out of their minds the entire series except for the first game against TSM and the last three games against TSM? Come on. He seems really really intent on ignoring the alternate hypothesis of "Korean teams just suck now" or "TSM is actually decent" and is making really bad, contradictory assumptions; assumptions like "China is a harder region". Like, if WE comes to IEM and beats everyone you maybe get to claim that China is a harder region. But you don't get to claim that Korea and Europe are good because they all got trashed too. And you don't get to make the arguments, at the same time, that Korea is the strongest region, and that other regions are weaker than China because they lost to WE. TSM beat them and beat the teams that beat them. So shouldn't that mean that NA is a harder region than Korea if it means China is? Well not in Thorin's head. Then there is the "Just watch NALCS its shit but GE tigers are super amazing" and well. Is he watching Korean LCS. GE tigers win like half their games because the other teams just fucking throw super super hard. Not like "oh that was a big mistake" but like "well that gold soloqueue shit just lost you the game son". Then he goes on to be like "well if TSM beat all the Korean teams in a best of 5 i might consider them a top 10 team" and by them i am not really paying attention because its a lot of faff about nothing at this point. We will find out if WE is legit if they perform well in China at the end of this split with the new members. We will find out if Korea really is a shit as they look when the next tournament comes around. But until then, well #TSMWONNERED | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On March 19 2015 14:55 739 wrote: Bard is fun to play, that's right but I think that the 'projectile' speed of his ult should be a little bit faster or I'm just a bad aimer so far. I don't think it should.... yet. They ought to leave Bard alone for a month or so. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 19 2015 15:05 Goumindong wrote: He might not. RE what thorin is saying: + Show Spoiler + I disagree that WE didn't crush GE. WE out picked them and out played them. They exploited GE's weak early game and penchant for playing mid game champions by playing late scaling champions and winning the early game anyway. WE lost one really close game and then styled on GE. Maybe they were just the right team at the right time, and GE is only good because Korea doesn't know how to pick AD's other than Corki. They tried the same thing against TSM, because TSM also has had a historically weakish early game. Its why the bans in WE/GE game were similar to the bans in the WE/TSM game. They wanted to take away the lategame Lulu and Viktor, champions which can stall until they're hilarious. But TSM did not fall into the korean trap of having mid game spike champions all throughout their roster. And TSM identified and exploited WE's weaknesses. His argument seems to be pretty circular: WE is bad because WE lost to TSM and the other teams are bad because WE beat them so TSM's wins over them don't mean much... and GE was just a fluke because it had to be. Nah. Then he makes this really weird claim that it would have been better for the "TSM is good" argument if WE stomped them in the first game? Like what? I mean what? So you're saying that WE played out of their minds the entire series except for the first game against TSM and the last three games against TSM? Come on. He seems really really intent on ignoring the alternate hypothesis of "Korean teams just suck now" or "TSM is actually decent" and is making really bad, contradictory assumptions; assumptions like "China is a harder region". Like, if WE comes to IEM and beats everyone you maybe get to claim that China is a harder region. But you don't get to claim that Korea and Europe are good because they all got trashed too. And you don't get to make the arguments, at the same time, that Korea is the strongest region, and that other regions are weaker than China because they lost to WE. TSM beat them and beat the teams that beat them. So shouldn't that mean that NA is a harder region than Korea if it means China is? Well not in Thorin's head. Then there is the "Just watch NALCS its shit but GE tigers are super amazing" and well. Is he watching Korean LCS. GE tigers win like half their games because the other teams just fucking throw super super hard. Not like "oh that was a big mistake" but like "well that gold soloqueue shit just lost you the game son". Then he goes on to be like "well if TSM beat all the Korean teams in a best of 5 i might consider them a top 10 team" and by them i am not really paying attention because its a lot of faff about nothing at this point. We will find out if WE is legit if they perform well in China at the end of this split with the new members. We will find out if Korea really is a shit as they look when the next tournament comes around. But until then, well #TSMWONNERED I don't think he really shits on TSM tbh, He gives pretty fair view, he said he considers them top 5 after IEM (which is contradictory to your point that you think he ignores the idea that TSM is decent), but he felt that if TSM had won the tournament facing GE.T in finals that it would legitimize their placement even further. anyways, I just hope this fucking teaches Koreans not to fucking send their players the day before a short tourney. If you watch the latest TSM episode, Regi was planning flights for TSM to arrive early to EU on week 6. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
How many Korean's left? A dozen or more of the very best Koreans in OGN left for China. Then we start seeing Bengi, GBM, Pray, and Space rise to the top. Hmm, I wonder why that could be? They must've just gotten super good and fixed all their problems in the off season. It couldn't have been because all the good players left. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On March 19 2015 15:27 Sonnington wrote: I had a similar impression to this video as Goumindong. Well done analysis. I found the part funny where Thorin was trying to make the claim that there's a significant difference between Koreans not being able to close games out and NA/EU not being able to close games out. That's actually the big reason why I've ignored LCK this season. It looks like they're falling back on the 'let them make a mistake and engage us, then counter engage' strat the EU teams have popularized. The only reason one would do that is because you're not confident in your team and your teamplay mechanics. How many Korean's left? A dozen or more of the very best Koreans in OGN left for China. Then we start seeing Bengi, GBM, Pray, and Space rise to the top. Hmm, I wonder why that could be? They must've just gotten super good and fixed all their problems in the off season. It couldn't have been because all the good players left. I agree/disagree. I disagree in that, LCK still provides much better engages and teamplay than EU or NA LCS, at least from the POV that I have an idea of what a top team is doing, and I can tell you the affirmative steps they are taking to win. However, I strongly agree with the talent problems in Korea (except GBM, I actually like the new GBM). Top 3 Junglers gone (if any went to SKT instead that team would be very exciting), top 2 ADCs gone, 2 of the top 4 supports, 3 of the top 5 mids (and the other two are stuck on one team), and also a bunch of toplaners (RIP Flame). IMO it was made worse by that happening at the same time sister teams were eliminated. SKT really needs to be experimenting with junglers, and CJ needs to be experimenting with everything, but they can't really because they want to make playoffs. Luckily Najin is taking risks (but only after being eliminated) and Samsung is experimenting (a lot of misses). Losing the sister teams is just as big a blow (bigger long term) than losing the great players. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On March 19 2015 15:26 wei2coolman wrote: I don't think he really shits on TSM tbh, He gives pretty fair view, he said he considers them top 5 after IEM (which is contradictory to your point that you think he ignores the idea that TSM is decent), but he felt that if TSM had won the tournament facing GE.T in finals that it would legitimize their placement even further. anyways, I just hope this fucking teaches Koreans not to fucking send their players the day before a short tourney. If you watch the latest TSM episode, Regi was planning flights for TSM to arrive early to EU on week 6. He backtracks that "top 5" statement to be "if they had bo 3rd CJ and BO 5 GE." And then backtracks it further. You just can't do any kind of objective analysis which puts TSM below top 3. The only international tournament we have played this season they won, by standard ELO they've got to be around the top. And we'll you can say it's not a very confident evaluation but neither would it be a confident evaluation of GE won, because that is how MMR evaluations work. But if GE had won this tournament damned if they wouldn't be proclaimed "best there ever was and will ever be" by Thorin. At the end of the day all the "best in the world" stuff comes down to "on this day at this tournament". But hemming and hawing over it doesn't change the fact that the TSM won, and the Koreans did not. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9362 Posts
Then he makes this really weird claim that it would have been better for the "TSM is good" argument if WE stomped them in the first game? Like what? I mean what? So you're saying that WE played out of their minds the entire series except for the first game against TSM and the last three games against TSM? Come on. Yeh, that seemed like such a very non-Thorin'ish argument. He might as well downplay the strenght of Skt T1 and Samsung White during S3 and S4 worlds. Then there is the "Just watch NALCS its !@#$%^&* but GE tigers are super amazing" and well. Is he watching Korean LCS. GE tigers win like half their games because the other teams just fucking throw super super hard I also hate the "open your eyes"-argument. 99% of all people who think they can determine the difference in quality by just watching two different regions are likely wrong. The fact that Thorin thinks he can do it is most likely a consequence of confirmation bias. Moreover, you would think that he actually adressed specifically how to create a methodology to properly determine this difference. Just saying "you can open your eyes and see it" is such a lackluster and flawed argument. That's a big characteristic of Thorin tbh. While he is good at finding flaws in other peoples arguments, he very often makes similar flawed arguments in different situation. He really isn't that intellectual logic mastermind. In the end, I didn't disagree with the TSM top 10 -thing and top korea teams still better than TSM, but his argumentation was just bad. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 19 2015 15:56 Goumindong wrote: He backtracks that "top 5" statement to be "if they had bo 3rd CJ and BO 5 GE." And then backtracks it further. You just can't do any kind of objective analysis which puts TSM below top 3. The only international tournament we have played this season they won, by standard ELO they've got to be around the top. And we'll you can say it's not a very confident evaluation but neither would it be a confident evaluation of GE won, because that is how MMR evaluations work. But if GE had won this tournament damned if they wouldn't be proclaimed "best there ever was and will ever be" by Thorin. At the end of the day all the "best in the world" stuff comes down to "on this day at this tournament". But hemming and hawing over it doesn't change the fact that the TSM won, and the Koreans did not. i don't know how you look at beating WE as confirmation of top 3 of the world... lol | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On March 19 2015 14:15 Goumindong wrote: No actually i was comparing it as a first or second item and noting that the breakpoints for mages with even half decent ratios (or who get multiple rotations off per luden's proc) easily out perform with Deathcap. The AP/Ratio range for which Luden's beats deathcap isn't "mid game" and its so amazingly slim its barely worth considering. For someone with a 2.0 ratio per proc the breakpoint is 220 AP. For TF who gets (E proc, W, Q) rotation off once its 289 AP. So if you run AP Quints, and flat AP blues and you're level 10 with Morello's and Luden's/Cap and 1 dragon buff you will have 267 AP. Which means that Luden's is better for a whole 600 gold including its purchase price advantage Basically no one comes out on top for damage on Luden's unless all you're doing is poking and your ratio is relatively low on that poke (and you're a master of making it hit the right target and not creeps when you're poking) I mean, it would be great for Ezreal... But Ezreal can't use it because his Q doesn't proc spell effects. Comparing it to end game item builds it does really well. Since there are no other 120 AP items that have any kind of damage boost getting Luden's after Cap (for a poke Heavy champion this could be better than Void) or after cap and void easily does the highest damage of any other item. It's not really worth arguing about, but you're giving 0 value to the movespeed (which is a huge deal, and a bigger deal on TF than most champions), and ignoring that Void Staff will outdamage Deathcap here, so the three item timing would be Morello - Ludens - Void, not Morello - Ludens - Deathcap. Or possibly even Morello - Ludens - Lich Bane even, who knows. Is Morello really considered standard on TF now? I know people are building it, but is it all that required? It seems like mana regen is not really something he needs. Is the CDR that valuable? | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
I don't understand why your "it would be morello - echo - void" comment matters. It would be morello - cap - void as better or morello - cap - lich or morello -void- lich or morello - lich - void or morello - cap - lich or morello lich cap. But never morello-echo -anything unless you really really needed the move speed. But if you do just get alacrity upgrade a bit sooner. The issue is that, whenever you would buy echo, you're pretty much better of buying cap unless you don't have a cap already. Unless you're first buying it and are content for that one item timing. | ||
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
On March 19 2015 16:38 Ketara wrote: It's not really worth arguing about, but you're giving 0 value to the movespeed (which is a huge deal, and a bigger deal on TF than most champions), and ignoring that Void Staff will outdamage Deathcap here, so the three item timing would be Morello - Ludens - Void, not Morello - Ludens - Deathcap. Or possibly even Morello - Ludens - Lich Bane even, who knows. Is Morello really considered standard on TF now? I know people are building it, but is it all that required? It seems like mana regen is not really something he needs. Is the CDR that valuable? I'd argue when most of your teamfighting/combat prowess relies on long range poke and gold card spam it is. | ||
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