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On March 17 2015 18:36 Alaric wrote:Yesterday we had a hour long game with 2 beginners and a pub, Garen/Rammus/Zyra (the saddest, beginnerest of beginners)/Talon/Ashe vs Draven/Blitzcrank/LB/Yi/Kayle (now you see Zyra's sadness). We ended up losing because Ashe never dared to try and auto people and ran in circles flailing his arms and I as Talon could barely 100-0 one person lategame (no silence on E is so sad, LB just presses W away and she isn't even in ult range anymore, Draven presses E and lifesteals a good third of his HP back before the cc wears off and I have to rely on crits to make up for it D: I had forgotten how much of a difference it makes, and if I jumped someone else, Kayle ult made me sad anyway). However, at some point Garen decided to sell his Thornmail because he wasn't good enough apparently, and when I mentioned to them how Kayle does mostly magic damage and shreds resistances (Rammus had 60 MR without W and was getting exploded by LB) bought Cowl x2 outright rather than finish a Banshee's. Rammus didn't buy MR and took Frozen Mallet as his last item because he tought it'd make it easier to catch people too. But most of the time they didn't even try to run from us, they just sat there autoing without moving, and once we "won" a fight Distortion and Kayle's Q/E are stronger than Mallet anyway.  I showed Garen in the post-game screen how he did ~55% magic damage, with his ult not doing that much (in terms of flat numbers) since they were 4 squishies. Still thought thornmail wasn't the source for most of his damage. Some people have their ideas regarding itemisation. ^^' (At least I got him to start either sunfire or cowl depending on his lane opponent, no more Sunfire vs Cass or Cowl vs Tryndamere. He plays almost only Garen so at least he racks up experience in his match-ups. He's adamant that Q is to run away, or run up to someone attacking you, silence them then use the MS buff to run away.)
wat?
On March 17 2015 21:38 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 21:09 M2 wrote:On March 17 2015 20:54 Gahlo wrote:On March 17 2015 20:37 M2 wrote:On March 17 2015 20:16 Gahlo wrote:On March 17 2015 20:11 M2 wrote:On March 17 2015 19:45 M2 wrote:
If you can afford it, does it make sense for a melee diving champions like riven, rengar etc. to play with health seals runes vs AP lane opponent and armor seal runes vs AD? I mean forget about the other runes, lets discuss just the yellow ones. The thing is I am not sure how the mathematics works exactly, on theory Health runes should be > Armor runes vs AP, however, I have the feeling that when I dive with health runes my trades are worse due to creeps damage and ap champs autoattack as well. But maybe its just me trading bad, I am really confused about that. Depends on playstyle. I use scaling health seals against everything. Ok, if you want early aggression, does health runes > armor vs AP or creep damage + autoattacks makes it the same or even armor > all Runing for early aggression in solo lanes seems kind of silly nowadays. With the noticeable kickup in champion stats at early levels, the benefit you get from doing so has diminished greatly. Personally, I don't think runing flat defensive stats in a solo lane is worth it when scaling evens out at level 6. Ok, you kind of deviate the topic, but this is something that I also thought a lot about it. Its true that at lvl 6 they break even, however, its not that linear, because at level 7, 8, 9, 10 etc the stats scaling runes provide are not as great comparable to the items & champ levels that are already on the field. Flat runes fight vs what? a doran or a long sword or even a flask, with champs that are level 1-6, while level 8 scaling runes fight vs other lvl 8 champs (a lot more ad amor ap etc) and items like BF sword, chain vest etc. Do you think relatively the runes pay off in that environment in comparison with the flat runes vs doran? And dont forget that we talk about the margin between flat and scaling runes after 6, coz flats still provide their stats at lvl 7 and above Scaling runes compared to what they should be measured against, flat ones. Realistically, solo laners shouldn't be dying in lane pre-6 in standard lanes. After that they're clearly better. Over all it isn't much, 27 of a resist as opposed to 9 or 13, but it's still an edge that I think it worth taking. If we input the condition people don't die 1v1 pre 6, your theory > mine, but in games I play and streams I watch, people always die/kill pre 6. So my question is: in such imperfect environment where someone will die pre 6, are health runes better vs AP opponent or should I stick with armor for all matchups, due to creep and autoattack damage? Or maybe health runes are even better vs AD opponent as well. Not sure how the math goes honestly I think it was pretty uniform that resistance will provide a better EHP against a single damage type while HP will give a better all around EHP from runes. Resists will scale better because champion health/level outstrips their resist gains.
Not really. Unless you're Mundo or Garen who leaves the fight for 5 seconds, you don't often regenerate a lot of life in teamfights so you just need to refer to an EHP chart.
![[image loading]](http://i39.tinypic.com/30nf5hl.png)
I've built FMallet in 3/14 of my last games with a FMallet champion. I like it, but I sometimes get warmogs first just because I'm on a champion that doesn't regenerate health. No point having 700 bonus life if you're going to be missing 700 from clearing the jungle/dragon before you fight.
I think I'd prefer if it had CDR, MR, or Armor to AD because I'm definitely getting the item for its passive. But AD isn't the worst. No item in the game helps you stick to people like mallet.
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TL;DR people can't into itemisation
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garens ult doesnt really do less damgae to squishies at all you havent done the math alaric
a tank with more hp and more mr in proportion takes about the same damage
you're executing 2k hp maxers at 600 hp or something while 3k hp maxers its only like 800 even if they dont buy any mr
thornmail does a shitload of damage though
against lots of ad you can just get 3x randuins thornmail lw
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Obesechicken, what are you trying to say with that post? You first disagree with the statement that resists will provide more EHP in most situations, then you post a graph that proves that it actually does provide more EHP.
Then you talk about something called FMallet champions (whatever that is) and that you lose a lot of health clearing the jungle, which is something that shouldn't happen at the point in the game where you get FMallet.
You also say you don't like the AD at which point you might as well build Righteous Glory or Randuins.
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graph is pretty pointless there it doesnt take into account magic physical damage balance and %pen items
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On March 17 2015 21:53 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 18:36 Alaric wrote:Yesterday we had a hour long game with 2 beginners and a pub, Garen/Rammus/Zyra (the saddest, beginnerest of beginners)/Talon/Ashe vs Draven/Blitzcrank/LB/Yi/Kayle (now you see Zyra's sadness). We ended up losing because Ashe never dared to try and auto people and ran in circles flailing his arms and I as Talon could barely 100-0 one person lategame (no silence on E is so sad, LB just presses W away and she isn't even in ult range anymore, Draven presses E and lifesteals a good third of his HP back before the cc wears off and I have to rely on crits to make up for it D: I had forgotten how much of a difference it makes, and if I jumped someone else, Kayle ult made me sad anyway). However, at some point Garen decided to sell his Thornmail because he wasn't good enough apparently, and when I mentioned to them how Kayle does mostly magic damage and shreds resistances (Rammus had 60 MR without W and was getting exploded by LB) bought Cowl x2 outright rather than finish a Banshee's. Rammus didn't buy MR and took Frozen Mallet as his last item because he tought it'd make it easier to catch people too. But most of the time they didn't even try to run from us, they just sat there autoing without moving, and once we "won" a fight Distortion and Kayle's Q/E are stronger than Mallet anyway. I showed Garen in the post-game screen how he did ~55% magic damage, with his ult not doing that much (in terms of flat numbers) since they were 4 squishies. Still thought thornmail wasn't the source for most of his damage. Some people have their ideas regarding itemisation. ^^' (At least I got him to start either sunfire or cowl depending on his lane opponent, no more Sunfire vs Cass or Cowl vs Tryndamere. He plays almost only Garen so at least he racks up experience in his match-ups. He's adamant that Q is to run away, or run up to someone attacking you, silence them then use the MS buff to run away.) wat? Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 21:38 Gahlo wrote:On March 17 2015 21:09 M2 wrote:On March 17 2015 20:54 Gahlo wrote:On March 17 2015 20:37 M2 wrote:On March 17 2015 20:16 Gahlo wrote:On March 17 2015 20:11 M2 wrote:On March 17 2015 19:45 M2 wrote:
If you can afford it, does it make sense for a melee diving champions like riven, rengar etc. to play with health seals runes vs AP lane opponent and armor seal runes vs AD? I mean forget about the other runes, lets discuss just the yellow ones. The thing is I am not sure how the mathematics works exactly, on theory Health runes should be > Armor runes vs AP, however, I have the feeling that when I dive with health runes my trades are worse due to creeps damage and ap champs autoattack as well. But maybe its just me trading bad, I am really confused about that. Depends on playstyle. I use scaling health seals against everything. Ok, if you want early aggression, does health runes > armor vs AP or creep damage + autoattacks makes it the same or even armor > all Runing for early aggression in solo lanes seems kind of silly nowadays. With the noticeable kickup in champion stats at early levels, the benefit you get from doing so has diminished greatly. Personally, I don't think runing flat defensive stats in a solo lane is worth it when scaling evens out at level 6. Ok, you kind of deviate the topic, but this is something that I also thought a lot about it. Its true that at lvl 6 they break even, however, its not that linear, because at level 7, 8, 9, 10 etc the stats scaling runes provide are not as great comparable to the items & champ levels that are already on the field. Flat runes fight vs what? a doran or a long sword or even a flask, with champs that are level 1-6, while level 8 scaling runes fight vs other lvl 8 champs (a lot more ad amor ap etc) and items like BF sword, chain vest etc. Do you think relatively the runes pay off in that environment in comparison with the flat runes vs doran? And dont forget that we talk about the margin between flat and scaling runes after 6, coz flats still provide their stats at lvl 7 and above Scaling runes compared to what they should be measured against, flat ones. Realistically, solo laners shouldn't be dying in lane pre-6 in standard lanes. After that they're clearly better. Over all it isn't much, 27 of a resist as opposed to 9 or 13, but it's still an edge that I think it worth taking. If we input the condition people don't die 1v1 pre 6, your theory > mine, but in games I play and streams I watch, people always die/kill pre 6. So my question is: in such imperfect environment where someone will die pre 6, are health runes better vs AP opponent or should I stick with armor for all matchups, due to creep and autoattack damage? Or maybe health runes are even better vs AD opponent as well. Not sure how the math goes honestly I think it was pretty uniform that resistance will provide a better EHP against a single damage type while HP will give a better all around EHP from runes. Resists will scale better because champion health/level outstrips their resist gains. Not really. Unless you're Mundo or Garen who leaves the fight for 5 seconds, you don't often regenerate a lot of life in teamfights so you just need to refer to an EHP chart. I've built FMallet in 3/14 of my last games with a FMallet champion. I like it, but I sometimes get warmogs first just because I'm on a champion that doesn't regenerate health. No point having 700 bonus life if you're going to be missing 700 from clearing the jungle/dragon before you fight. I think I'd prefer if it had CDR, MR, or Armor to AD because I'm definitely getting the item for its passive. But AD isn't the worst. No item in the game helps you stick to people like mallet.
We're discussing purely level 1-6 though, specifically on Riven, where the "buy health" portion is small and quickly evaporates.
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levels 1-6 pots reign supreme to favour armour over any sort of hp vs armor calc
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On March 17 2015 22:17 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 21:53 obesechicken13 wrote:On March 17 2015 18:36 Alaric wrote:Yesterday we had a hour long game with 2 beginners and a pub, Garen/Rammus/Zyra (the saddest, beginnerest of beginners)/Talon/Ashe vs Draven/Blitzcrank/LB/Yi/Kayle (now you see Zyra's sadness). We ended up losing because Ashe never dared to try and auto people and ran in circles flailing his arms and I as Talon could barely 100-0 one person lategame (no silence on E is so sad, LB just presses W away and she isn't even in ult range anymore, Draven presses E and lifesteals a good third of his HP back before the cc wears off and I have to rely on crits to make up for it D: I had forgotten how much of a difference it makes, and if I jumped someone else, Kayle ult made me sad anyway). However, at some point Garen decided to sell his Thornmail because he wasn't good enough apparently, and when I mentioned to them how Kayle does mostly magic damage and shreds resistances (Rammus had 60 MR without W and was getting exploded by LB) bought Cowl x2 outright rather than finish a Banshee's. Rammus didn't buy MR and took Frozen Mallet as his last item because he tought it'd make it easier to catch people too. But most of the time they didn't even try to run from us, they just sat there autoing without moving, and once we "won" a fight Distortion and Kayle's Q/E are stronger than Mallet anyway. I showed Garen in the post-game screen how he did ~55% magic damage, with his ult not doing that much (in terms of flat numbers) since they were 4 squishies. Still thought thornmail wasn't the source for most of his damage. Some people have their ideas regarding itemisation. ^^' (At least I got him to start either sunfire or cowl depending on his lane opponent, no more Sunfire vs Cass or Cowl vs Tryndamere. He plays almost only Garen so at least he racks up experience in his match-ups. He's adamant that Q is to run away, or run up to someone attacking you, silence them then use the MS buff to run away.) wat? On March 17 2015 21:38 Gahlo wrote:On March 17 2015 21:09 M2 wrote:On March 17 2015 20:54 Gahlo wrote:On March 17 2015 20:37 M2 wrote:On March 17 2015 20:16 Gahlo wrote:On March 17 2015 20:11 M2 wrote:On March 17 2015 19:45 M2 wrote:
If you can afford it, does it make sense for a melee diving champions like riven, rengar etc. to play with health seals runes vs AP lane opponent and armor seal runes vs AD? I mean forget about the other runes, lets discuss just the yellow ones. The thing is I am not sure how the mathematics works exactly, on theory Health runes should be > Armor runes vs AP, however, I have the feeling that when I dive with health runes my trades are worse due to creeps damage and ap champs autoattack as well. But maybe its just me trading bad, I am really confused about that. Depends on playstyle. I use scaling health seals against everything. Ok, if you want early aggression, does health runes > armor vs AP or creep damage + autoattacks makes it the same or even armor > all Runing for early aggression in solo lanes seems kind of silly nowadays. With the noticeable kickup in champion stats at early levels, the benefit you get from doing so has diminished greatly. Personally, I don't think runing flat defensive stats in a solo lane is worth it when scaling evens out at level 6. Ok, you kind of deviate the topic, but this is something that I also thought a lot about it. Its true that at lvl 6 they break even, however, its not that linear, because at level 7, 8, 9, 10 etc the stats scaling runes provide are not as great comparable to the items & champ levels that are already on the field. Flat runes fight vs what? a doran or a long sword or even a flask, with champs that are level 1-6, while level 8 scaling runes fight vs other lvl 8 champs (a lot more ad amor ap etc) and items like BF sword, chain vest etc. Do you think relatively the runes pay off in that environment in comparison with the flat runes vs doran? And dont forget that we talk about the margin between flat and scaling runes after 6, coz flats still provide their stats at lvl 7 and above Scaling runes compared to what they should be measured against, flat ones. Realistically, solo laners shouldn't be dying in lane pre-6 in standard lanes. After that they're clearly better. Over all it isn't much, 27 of a resist as opposed to 9 or 13, but it's still an edge that I think it worth taking. If we input the condition people don't die 1v1 pre 6, your theory > mine, but in games I play and streams I watch, people always die/kill pre 6. So my question is: in such imperfect environment where someone will die pre 6, are health runes better vs AP opponent or should I stick with armor for all matchups, due to creep and autoattack damage? Or maybe health runes are even better vs AD opponent as well. Not sure how the math goes honestly I think it was pretty uniform that resistance will provide a better EHP against a single damage type while HP will give a better all around EHP from runes. Resists will scale better because champion health/level outstrips their resist gains. Not really. Unless you're Mundo or Garen who leaves the fight for 5 seconds, you don't often regenerate a lot of life in teamfights so you just need to refer to an EHP chart. I've built FMallet in 3/14 of my last games with a FMallet champion. I like it, but I sometimes get warmogs first just because I'm on a champion that doesn't regenerate health. No point having 700 bonus life if you're going to be missing 700 from clearing the jungle/dragon before you fight. I think I'd prefer if it had CDR, MR, or Armor to AD because I'm definitely getting the item for its passive. But AD isn't the worst. No item in the game helps you stick to people like mallet. We're discussing purely level 1-6 though, specifically on Riven, where the "buy health" portion is small and quickly evaporates.
Ah, I missed that part. In lane it's different when you're popping health pots all day long.
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On March 17 2015 22:11 Fildun wrote:
Obesechicken, what are you trying to say with that post? You first disagree with the statement that resists will provide more EHP in most situations, then you post a graph that proves that it actually does provide more EHP.
Then you talk about something called FMallet champions (whatever that is) and that you lose a lot of health clearing the jungle, which is something that shouldn't happen at the point in the game where you get FMallet.
You also say you don't like the AD at which point you might as well build Righteous Glory or Randuins.
My bad, I thought the graph looked more like the all resists vs EHP part. He was right, building armor is better than hp if you're focusing just on physical HP.
You do take damage on some champions that have no sustain, but that like FMallet Eg. Poppy, from jungle monsters or from dragon or just from random poke. One could argue you wouldn't want Warmogs over Mallet on Poppy anyways, but that's besides the point. Warmogs helps keep you topped up before a teamfight starts and in between minor skirmishes. I'd consider a FMallet champion to be any champion that likes to build it. Usually that means melee champions that like AD since the Ranged ADC prefer defensive 6th items and sometimes a 6th offensive item.
Even though I don't like the AD on mallet I think it's sometimes necessary to have slows for a longer duration than Randuins or RG can provide. Sometimes there's this one tanky Udyr that gets away every teamfight and then splitpushes my towers and he has enough tenacity that RG's slow and Randuin's slow isn't enough.
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So Luden's on Kennen seems to be doing a LOT of damage, i'd probably be my go-to damage item, but definitely not worth building over Rylais if you don't have a really strong engage. But I kinda want to try building it first if I can afford not getting Zhonya's.
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On March 17 2015 23:06 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 22:11 Fildun wrote:
Obesechicken, what are you trying to say with that post? You first disagree with the statement that resists will provide more EHP in most situations, then you post a graph that proves that it actually does provide more EHP.
Then you talk about something called FMallet champions (whatever that is) and that you lose a lot of health clearing the jungle, which is something that shouldn't happen at the point in the game where you get FMallet.
You also say you don't like the AD at which point you might as well build Righteous Glory or Randuins. My bad, I thought the graph looked more like the all resists vs EHP part. He was right, building armor is better than hp if you're focusing just on physical HP. You do take damage on some champions that have no sustain, but that like FMallet Eg. Poppy, from jungle monsters or from dragon or just from random poke. One could argue you wouldn't want Warmogs over Mallet on Poppy anyways, but that's besides the point. Warmogs helps keep you topped up before a teamfight starts and in between minor skirmishes. I'd consider a FMallet champion to be any champion that likes to build it. Usually that means melee champions that like AD since the Ranged ADC prefer defensive 6th items and sometimes a 6th offensive item. Even though I don't like the AD on mallet I think it's sometimes necessary to have slows for a longer duration than Randuins or RG can provide. Sometimes there's this one tanky Udyr that gets away every teamfight and then splitpushes my towers and he has enough tenacity that RG's slow and Randuin's slow isn't enough.
Could you maybe be a bit more specific? When you say melee champions that like AD I assume you don't mean Zed, Yasuo, etc.
In most cases I'd take things like Triforce or BotRK over FMallet any day of the week, because those items speed yourself up instead of slowing the enemy, which makes you a lot more versatile with your movement in teamfights and small skirmishes.
I personally consider Warmogs a shitty item in all circumstances, because if you're low from poke you should have dodged it and if you're low from dragon and fighting you should not have started the dragon in the first place. Also, in dragon fights Warmogs regen isn't gonna do shit.
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On March 17 2015 21:47 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 19:50 cLutZ wrote:On March 17 2015 19:14 sob3k wrote:On March 17 2015 19:04 cLutZ wrote:On March 17 2015 18:07 GolemMadness wrote:
I think the problem with frozen mallet is that usually you just want a bunch of health and don't care that much about the AD. I don't really like warmog's, but if you just want health, on frozen mallet you're spending 800 extra gold for 100 less health. It just delays your tankiness so much. The problem with Frozen Mallet is that melee champions don't actually get to auto attack in teamfights. Thats why bruisers go for Trinity so that first auto really counts, because your really only get one more. So, really those "stats" and that passive are basically 0 Gold. Dude, show me all these teamfights where no melee champs get to autoattack. If tanks and bruisers only got to auto once in a fight nobody would be picking them. They may not get to the ideal target but they have tons of opportunity to auto. They would get more if they all slowed by 40%. Absolute worst case you get to apply a brutal permaslow to whoever is diving your backline on top of whatever hard cc you have. + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/6PEl3YhwF4I?t=59m18s In the most important teamfight of the game: Sion: 0 (1 maybe, looks like it cancelled before it went off) Jarvan: 1 Vi: 1 (during the chase, possibly a second was obscured by Ahri animations) Rumble: 1 (on Jarvan, in his Cataclysm) Edit: This is pretty typical, I did this before for a Jax/Renekton dragonfight during S4 Jax had 0 and Renekton got 3. While I respect your cherry picked evidence, the reason the melees barely got any hits off in that particular fight I think had more to do with the sloppy play, like Sion ulting into his teammates cataclysm. If sion had gotten his ult off, THEN j4 had ultied it would have been quite different. I've played alot of melee and whether or not you get any hits off just depends on the strengths of the teams at that particular moment. As for mallet, it has limited uses I agree, but it definitely has a place with some champs/comps.
Not really cherry picked, just the deciding teamfight of the last game I watched that had teams on even footing later in the game. Obviously some comps will be more conducive to autoing, like Irelia or Jax, but TSM had a Sivir and Vi has an AA reset and she still barely got any off.
Mostly if you watch melee autoattacking is for dueling/skirmishing or for cleaning up kills (which is why Jax isn't really a great teamfighter, but if you start winning with Jax you can just mop up kills).
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Played ap kog last night. I think it's time to go back to the mana pool build, morellos isn't cutting it this season
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On March 18 2015 02:07 Slusher wrote:
Played ap kog last night. I think it's time to go back to the mana pool build, morellos isn't cutting it this season
I found RoA+Morello's was enough to be effective imo. If you go tears+catalyst, it delays damage too much, and you end up having a hard time farming because no AP to wave clear.
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Playing ap kog without seraph sounds awful.There was a guy who played a lot of ap kog mid in s4 and he went tear>chalice>rylai.Should be the best this season still.
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where can i watch origen vs mouz?
origen is EU's last hope.
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On March 18 2015 02:29 Mensol wrote:
where can i watch origen vs mouz?
origen is EU's last hope.
Challenger series games are not broadcasted
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If Warmog's is so bad, what do you guys consider for alternatives for Warmog's? Righteous Glory? I've been running Frozen Heart + Warmogs (+ Spirit Visage, but I don't want to get into the whole Banshee's Veil versus Spirit Visage debate right now) on Darius for quite some time now.
I like it for the health regeneration, but perhaps I am valuing health regeneration too much.
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Now that it's been buffed, RG is probably better than Warmogs all of the time, unless you're like Mundo or something I dunno.
A lot of the time Face of the Mountain is also similar to Warmogs but just better, as well. If you shield yourself FotM is giving about as much HP as Warmogs, also gives HP regen, but gives CDR and a little bit of damage, and increases your teams gold generation by a little bit.
But then what's great about FotM is you can shield somebody else.
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People seriously underestimating how good the regen is for Warmogs. The ability to stay on map after a fight is so huge. RG generally a better buy now, but if you don't have the need for the mana or active, warmogs is better.
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EPT
