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I just wanted to get this out there now that all this stuff about tanky itemization is coming up. Nobody buys Frozen motherfuckin Mallet. Lets take a look at some defensive items.
1. Warmogs
800hp = 2133g
% regen
85% efficient just hard stats
That regen is not worth shit, it takes far too long to go up to 3%. Its just bad. Actually all regen isn't worth much. Warmogs is crap, we all knew that.
2. Randuins
500 health = 1333g
70 armor = 1400g
slow nova
96% efficient just hard stats
3. Spirit Visage
400 health = 1066.6g
55 magic resist = 1100g
10% cooldown reduction = 316.6g
heal boost
90% hard stat efficiency
4. Sunfire
450 health = 1200g
45 armor = 900g
burn
80% hard stat efficiency
Popular item, you have to value the burn quite a bit to make it worth, but it is quite a bit of DPS.
5. Righteous Glory
650 health = 1733g
300 mana = ?
speed boost
This item is stacked with both mana and health regen. How much is 300 mana worth? Without it the item is only 70% hard stat efficient. So you better use that mana (and active). To look at mana value you can compare this item to Frozen Heart:
6. Frozen Heart:
100 armor = 2000g
400 mana = ?
20% cooldown reduction = 633g
15% negative AS aura = a negative dagger (450g) for each enemy
So even if we value 400 mana at ZERO, AND ignore the aura then Fheart is at 100% efficiency. Now thats a great defensive item.
So If we are just looking for combat stats then Fmallet actually looks pretty damn good.
Fmallet is
700HP
30AD
These are pretty much the hardest of hard stats. Everyone wants these. For the cost this is already at 90% efficiency. Thats pretty damn good for a defensive item. And then we have the passive effect which is a 40% slow on EVERY auto. That is CRAZY POWERFUL. Ashe has 35% slow for level FIVE Q, and it cost mana, and takes an entire ability slot.
Imma build this shit all day long if I need HP. The addition of Cinderhulk also boost all HP value by 25% for maximum OP synergy, making it even more viable.
TLDR: Frozen mallet is actually good, def better tham warmogs. Frozen heart is stupid good. Frozen=good
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
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I think the problem with frozen mallet is that usually you just want a bunch of health and don't care that much about the AD. I don't really like warmog's, but if you just want health, on frozen mallet you're spending 800 extra gold for 100 less health. It just delays your tankiness so much.
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Yesterday we had a hour long game with 2 beginners and a pub, Garen/Rammus/Zyra (the saddest, beginnerest of beginners)/Talon/Ashe vs Draven/Blitzcrank/LB/Yi/Kayle (now you see Zyra's sadness).
We ended up losing because Ashe never dared to try and auto people and ran in circles flailing his arms and I as Talon could barely 100-0 one person lategame (no silence on E is so sad, LB just presses W away and she isn't even in ult range anymore, Draven presses E and lifesteals a good third of his HP back before the cc wears off and I have to rely on crits to make up for it D: I had forgotten how much of a difference it makes, and if I jumped someone else, Kayle ult made me sad anyway).
However, at some point Garen decided to sell his Thornmail because he wasn't good enough apparently, and when I mentioned to them how Kayle does mostly magic damage and shreds resistances (Rammus had 60 MR without W and was getting exploded by LB) bought Cowl x2 outright rather than finish a Banshee's.
Rammus didn't buy MR and took Frozen Mallet as his last item because he tought it'd make it easier to catch people too.
But most of the time they didn't even try to run from us, they just sat there autoing without moving, and once we "won" a fight Distortion and Kayle's Q/E are stronger than Mallet anyway. 
I showed Garen in the post-game screen how he did ~55% magic damage, with his ult not doing that much (in terms of flat numbers) since they were 4 squishies. Still thought thornmail wasn't the source for most of his damage. Some people have their ideas regarding itemisation. ^^'
(At least I got him to start either sunfire or cowl depending on his lane opponent, no more Sunfire vs Cass or Cowl vs Tryndamere. He plays almost only Garen so at least he racks up experience in his match-ups. He's adamant that Q is to run away, or run up to someone attacking you, silence them then use the MS buff to run away.)
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I sometimes take Mallet on Sion just for his passive. Unless the fight is already over a Mallet and/or Gauntlet is usually a kill.
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On March 17 2015 18:07 GolemMadness wrote:
I think the problem with frozen mallet is that usually you just want a bunch of health and don't care that much about the AD. I don't really like warmog's, but if you just want health, on frozen mallet you're spending 800 extra gold for 100 less health. It just delays your tankiness so much.
People almost always get an offensive item, no reason it cant be combined inone item. If you want hp you can sit on giants belt ruby crystal first, thats 500hp. Its not even a full damage item of damage stats you are paying for, its like half /third of a damage item.
You never hear people complaining about sacrificing their tankiness for damage when they build sunfire, which is the exact same thing.
Giant extra utility is exactly what tanks want, that's mallet.
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On March 17 2015 18:07 GolemMadness wrote:
I think the problem with frozen mallet is that usually you just want a bunch of health and don't care that much about the AD. I don't really like warmog's, but if you just want health, on frozen mallet you're spending 800 extra gold for 100 less health. It just delays your tankiness so much.
The problem with Frozen Mallet is that melee champions don't actually get to auto attack in teamfights. Thats why bruisers go for Trinity so that first auto really counts, because your really only get one more. So, really those "stats" and that passive are basically 0 Gold.
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On March 17 2015 19:04 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 18:07 GolemMadness wrote:
I think the problem with frozen mallet is that usually you just want a bunch of health and don't care that much about the AD. I don't really like warmog's, but if you just want health, on frozen mallet you're spending 800 extra gold for 100 less health. It just delays your tankiness so much. The problem with Frozen Mallet is that melee champions don't actually get to auto attack in teamfights. Thats why bruisers go for Trinity so that first auto really counts, because your really only get one more. So, really those "stats" and that passive are basically 0 Gold.
Dude, show me all these teamfights where no melee champs get to autoattack. If tanks and bruisers only got to auto once in a fight nobody would be picking them. They may not get to the ideal target but they have tons of opportunity to auto. They would get more if they all slowed by 40%. Absolute worst case you get to apply a brutal permaslow to whoever is diving your backline on top of whatever hard cc you have.
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If you can afford it, does it make sense for a melee diving champions like riven, rengar etc. to play with health seals runes vs AP lane opponent and armor seal runes vs AD? I mean forget about the other runes, lets discuss just the yellow ones. The thing is I am not sure how the mathematics works exactly, on theory Health runes should be > Armor runes vs AP, however, I have the feeling that when I dive with health runes my trades are worse due to creeps damage and ap champs autoattack as well. But maybe its just me trading bad, I am really confused about that.
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On March 17 2015 19:04 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 18:07 GolemMadness wrote:
I think the problem with frozen mallet is that usually you just want a bunch of health and don't care that much about the AD. I don't really like warmog's, but if you just want health, on frozen mallet you're spending 800 extra gold for 100 less health. It just delays your tankiness so much. People almost always get an offensive item, no reason it cant be combined inone item. If you want hp you can sit on giants belt ruby crystal first, thats 500hp. Its not even a full damage item of damage stats you are paying for, its like half /third of a damage item. You never hear people complaining about sacrificing their tankiness for damage when they build sunfire, which is the exact same thing. Giant extra utility is exactly what tanks want, that's mallet.
The problem with Mallet is that it's flat health and when you have items like Randuin's that will cause enough of a slow to do work, the onhit just isn't as valuable. Literally the only champion that's been able to abuse Mallet in the recent history was Gnar, but that was more an issue of Gnar than anything else. By going sunfire you are paying a bit in tankiness, yes, but it also has the benefit of compounding it's impact with it's own armor, while Mallet requires other items for impact.
On March 17 2015 19:45 M2 wrote:
If you can afford it, does it make sense for a melee diving champions like riven, rengar etc. to play with health seals runes vs AP lane opponent and armor seal runes vs AD? I mean forget about the other runes, lets discuss just the yellow ones. The thing is I am not sure how the mathematics works exactly, on theory Health runes should be > Armor runes vs AP, however, I have the feeling that when I dive with health runes my trades are worse due to creeps damage and ap champs autoattack as well. But maybe its just me trading bad, I am really confused about that.
Depends on playstyle. I use scaling health seals against everything.
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On March 17 2015 19:14 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 19:04 cLutZ wrote:On March 17 2015 18:07 GolemMadness wrote:
I think the problem with frozen mallet is that usually you just want a bunch of health and don't care that much about the AD. I don't really like warmog's, but if you just want health, on frozen mallet you're spending 800 extra gold for 100 less health. It just delays your tankiness so much. The problem with Frozen Mallet is that melee champions don't actually get to auto attack in teamfights. Thats why bruisers go for Trinity so that first auto really counts, because your really only get one more. So, really those "stats" and that passive are basically 0 Gold. Dude, show me all these teamfights where no melee champs get to autoattack. If tanks and bruisers only got to auto once in a fight nobody would be picking them. They may not get to the ideal target but they have tons of opportunity to auto. They would get more if they all slowed by 40%. Absolute worst case you get to apply a brutal permaslow to whoever is diving your backline on top of whatever hard cc you have.
+ Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/6PEl3YhwF4I?t=59m18s
In the most important teamfight of the game:
Sion: 0 (1 maybe, looks like it cancelled before it went off)
Jarvan: 1
Vi: 1 (during the chase, possibly a second was obscured by Ahri animations)
Rumble: 1 (on Jarvan, in his Cataclysm)
Edit: This is pretty typical, I did this before for a Jax/Renekton dragonfight during S4 Jax had 0 and Renekton got 3.
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Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 19:45 M2 wrote:
If you can afford it, does it make sense for a melee diving champions like riven, rengar etc. to play with health seals runes vs AP lane opponent and armor seal runes vs AD? I mean forget about the other runes, lets discuss just the yellow ones. The thing is I am not sure how the mathematics works exactly, on theory Health runes should be > Armor runes vs AP, however, I have the feeling that when I dive with health runes my trades are worse due to creeps damage and ap champs autoattack as well. But maybe its just me trading bad, I am really confused about that. Depends on playstyle. I use scaling health seals against everything.
Ok, if you want early aggression, does health runes > armor vs AP or creep damage + autoattacks makes it the same or even armor > all
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On March 17 2015 20:11 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 19:45 M2 wrote:
If you can afford it, does it make sense for a melee diving champions like riven, rengar etc. to play with health seals runes vs AP lane opponent and armor seal runes vs AD? I mean forget about the other runes, lets discuss just the yellow ones. The thing is I am not sure how the mathematics works exactly, on theory Health runes should be > Armor runes vs AP, however, I have the feeling that when I dive with health runes my trades are worse due to creeps damage and ap champs autoattack as well. But maybe its just me trading bad, I am really confused about that. Depends on playstyle. I use scaling health seals against everything. Ok, if you want early aggression, does health runes > armor vs AP or creep damage + autoattacks makes it the same or even armor > all
Runing for early aggression in solo lanes seems kind of silly nowadays. With the noticeable kickup in champion stats at early levels, the benefit you get from doing so has diminished greatly. Personally, I don't think runing flat defensive stats in a solo lane is worth it when scaling evens out at level 6.
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On March 17 2015 20:16 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 20:11 M2 wrote:On March 17 2015 19:45 M2 wrote:
If you can afford it, does it make sense for a melee diving champions like riven, rengar etc. to play with health seals runes vs AP lane opponent and armor seal runes vs AD? I mean forget about the other runes, lets discuss just the yellow ones. The thing is I am not sure how the mathematics works exactly, on theory Health runes should be > Armor runes vs AP, however, I have the feeling that when I dive with health runes my trades are worse due to creeps damage and ap champs autoattack as well. But maybe its just me trading bad, I am really confused about that. Depends on playstyle. I use scaling health seals against everything. Ok, if you want early aggression, does health runes > armor vs AP or creep damage + autoattacks makes it the same or even armor > all Runing for early aggression in solo lanes seems kind of silly nowadays. With the noticeable kickup in champion stats at early levels, the benefit you get from doing so has diminished greatly. Personally, I don't think runing flat defensive stats in a solo lane is worth it when scaling evens out at level 6.
Ok, you kind of deviate the topic, but this is something that I also thought a lot about it. Its true that at lvl 6 they break even, however, its not that linear, because at level 7, 8, 9, 10 etc the stats scaling runes provide are not as great comparable to the items & champ levels that are already on the field. Flat runes fight vs what? a doran or a long sword or even a flask, with champs that are level 1-6, while level 8 scaling runes fight vs other lvl 8 champs (a lot more ad amor ap etc) and items like BF sword, chain vest etc. Do you think relatively the runes pay off in that environment in comparison with the flat runes vs doran? And dont forget that we talk about the margin between flat and scaling runes after 6, coz flats still provide their stats at lvl 7 and above
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On March 17 2015 20:37 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 20:16 Gahlo wrote:On March 17 2015 20:11 M2 wrote:On March 17 2015 19:45 M2 wrote:
If you can afford it, does it make sense for a melee diving champions like riven, rengar etc. to play with health seals runes vs AP lane opponent and armor seal runes vs AD? I mean forget about the other runes, lets discuss just the yellow ones. The thing is I am not sure how the mathematics works exactly, on theory Health runes should be > Armor runes vs AP, however, I have the feeling that when I dive with health runes my trades are worse due to creeps damage and ap champs autoattack as well. But maybe its just me trading bad, I am really confused about that. Depends on playstyle. I use scaling health seals against everything. Ok, if you want early aggression, does health runes > armor vs AP or creep damage + autoattacks makes it the same or even armor > all Runing for early aggression in solo lanes seems kind of silly nowadays. With the noticeable kickup in champion stats at early levels, the benefit you get from doing so has diminished greatly. Personally, I don't think runing flat defensive stats in a solo lane is worth it when scaling evens out at level 6. Ok, you kind of deviate the topic, but this is something that I also thought a lot about it. Its true that at lvl 6 they break even, however, its not that linear, because at level 7, 8, 9, 10 etc the stats scaling runes provide are not as great comparable to the items & champ levels that are already on the field. Flat runes fight vs what? a doran or a long sword or even a flask, with champs that are level 1-6, while level 8 scaling runes fight vs other lvl 8 champs (a lot more ad amor ap etc) and items like BF sword, chain vest etc. Do you think relatively the runes pay off in that environment in comparison with the flat runes vs doran? And dont forget that we talk about the margin between flat and scaling runes after 6, coz flats still provide their stats at lvl 7 and above
Scaling runes compared to what they should be measured against, flat ones. Realistically, solo laners shouldn't be dying in lane pre-6 in standard lanes. After that they're clearly better. Over all it isn't much, 27 of a resist as opposed to 9 or 13, but it's still an edge that I think it worth taking.
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On March 17 2015 20:54 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 20:37 M2 wrote:On March 17 2015 20:16 Gahlo wrote:On March 17 2015 20:11 M2 wrote:On March 17 2015 19:45 M2 wrote:
If you can afford it, does it make sense for a melee diving champions like riven, rengar etc. to play with health seals runes vs AP lane opponent and armor seal runes vs AD? I mean forget about the other runes, lets discuss just the yellow ones. The thing is I am not sure how the mathematics works exactly, on theory Health runes should be > Armor runes vs AP, however, I have the feeling that when I dive with health runes my trades are worse due to creeps damage and ap champs autoattack as well. But maybe its just me trading bad, I am really confused about that. Depends on playstyle. I use scaling health seals against everything. Ok, if you want early aggression, does health runes > armor vs AP or creep damage + autoattacks makes it the same or even armor > all Runing for early aggression in solo lanes seems kind of silly nowadays. With the noticeable kickup in champion stats at early levels, the benefit you get from doing so has diminished greatly. Personally, I don't think runing flat defensive stats in a solo lane is worth it when scaling evens out at level 6. Ok, you kind of deviate the topic, but this is something that I also thought a lot about it. Its true that at lvl 6 they break even, however, its not that linear, because at level 7, 8, 9, 10 etc the stats scaling runes provide are not as great comparable to the items & champ levels that are already on the field. Flat runes fight vs what? a doran or a long sword or even a flask, with champs that are level 1-6, while level 8 scaling runes fight vs other lvl 8 champs (a lot more ad amor ap etc) and items like BF sword, chain vest etc. Do you think relatively the runes pay off in that environment in comparison with the flat runes vs doran? And dont forget that we talk about the margin between flat and scaling runes after 6, coz flats still provide their stats at lvl 7 and above Scaling runes compared to what they should be measured against, flat ones. Realistically, solo laners shouldn't be dying in lane pre-6 in standard lanes. After that they're clearly better. Over all it isn't much, 27 of a resist as opposed to 9 or 13, but it's still an edge that I think it worth taking.
If we input the condition people don't die 1v1 pre 6, your theory > mine, but in games I play and streams I watch, people always die/kill pre 6. So my question is: in such imperfect environment where someone will die pre 6, are health runes better vs AP opponent or should I stick with armor for all matchups, due to creep and autoattack damage? Or maybe health runes are even better vs AD opponent as well. Not sure how the math goes honestly
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Being stronger pre6 means you can take more trades and force someone to not take farm which lets you get advantage that is higher than from scaling runes. Being stronger pre6 means it's harder to kill you with a gank. I think you bring valid points M2. I personally use just whatever runeset is most popular on Probuilds but overall I'm a bigger fun of flat than scaling.
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On March 17 2015 21:09 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 20:54 Gahlo wrote:On March 17 2015 20:37 M2 wrote:On March 17 2015 20:16 Gahlo wrote:On March 17 2015 20:11 M2 wrote:On March 17 2015 19:45 M2 wrote:
If you can afford it, does it make sense for a melee diving champions like riven, rengar etc. to play with health seals runes vs AP lane opponent and armor seal runes vs AD? I mean forget about the other runes, lets discuss just the yellow ones. The thing is I am not sure how the mathematics works exactly, on theory Health runes should be > Armor runes vs AP, however, I have the feeling that when I dive with health runes my trades are worse due to creeps damage and ap champs autoattack as well. But maybe its just me trading bad, I am really confused about that. Depends on playstyle. I use scaling health seals against everything. Ok, if you want early aggression, does health runes > armor vs AP or creep damage + autoattacks makes it the same or even armor > all Runing for early aggression in solo lanes seems kind of silly nowadays. With the noticeable kickup in champion stats at early levels, the benefit you get from doing so has diminished greatly. Personally, I don't think runing flat defensive stats in a solo lane is worth it when scaling evens out at level 6. Ok, you kind of deviate the topic, but this is something that I also thought a lot about it. Its true that at lvl 6 they break even, however, its not that linear, because at level 7, 8, 9, 10 etc the stats scaling runes provide are not as great comparable to the items & champ levels that are already on the field. Flat runes fight vs what? a doran or a long sword or even a flask, with champs that are level 1-6, while level 8 scaling runes fight vs other lvl 8 champs (a lot more ad amor ap etc) and items like BF sword, chain vest etc. Do you think relatively the runes pay off in that environment in comparison with the flat runes vs doran? And dont forget that we talk about the margin between flat and scaling runes after 6, coz flats still provide their stats at lvl 7 and above Scaling runes compared to what they should be measured against, flat ones. Realistically, solo laners shouldn't be dying in lane pre-6 in standard lanes. After that they're clearly better. Over all it isn't much, 27 of a resist as opposed to 9 or 13, but it's still an edge that I think it worth taking. If we input the condition people don't die 1v1 pre 6, your theory > mine, but in games I play and streams I watch, people always die/kill pre 6. So my question is: in such imperfect environment where someone will die pre 6, are health runes better vs AP opponent or should I stick with armor for all matchups, due to creep and autoattack damage? Or maybe health runes are even better vs AD opponent as well. Not sure how the math goes honestly
I think it was pretty uniform that resistance will provide a better EHP against a single damage type while HP will give a better all around EHP from runes. Resists will scale better because champion health/level outstrips their resist gains.
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On March 17 2015 19:50 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 19:14 sob3k wrote:On March 17 2015 19:04 cLutZ wrote:On March 17 2015 18:07 GolemMadness wrote:
I think the problem with frozen mallet is that usually you just want a bunch of health and don't care that much about the AD. I don't really like warmog's, but if you just want health, on frozen mallet you're spending 800 extra gold for 100 less health. It just delays your tankiness so much. The problem with Frozen Mallet is that melee champions don't actually get to auto attack in teamfights. Thats why bruisers go for Trinity so that first auto really counts, because your really only get one more. So, really those "stats" and that passive are basically 0 Gold. Dude, show me all these teamfights where no melee champs get to autoattack. If tanks and bruisers only got to auto once in a fight nobody would be picking them. They may not get to the ideal target but they have tons of opportunity to auto. They would get more if they all slowed by 40%. Absolute worst case you get to apply a brutal permaslow to whoever is diving your backline on top of whatever hard cc you have. + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/6PEl3YhwF4I?t=59m18s In the most important teamfight of the game: Sion: 0 (1 maybe, looks like it cancelled before it went off) Jarvan: 1 Vi: 1 (during the chase, possibly a second was obscured by Ahri animations) Rumble: 1 (on Jarvan, in his Cataclysm) Edit: This is pretty typical, I did this before for a Jax/Renekton dragonfight during S4 Jax had 0 and Renekton got 3.
While I respect your cherry picked evidence, the reason the melees barely got any hits off in that particular fight I think had more to do with the sloppy play, like Sion ulting into his teammates cataclysm. If sion had gotten his ult off, THEN j4 had ultied it would have been quite different. I've played alot of melee and whether or not you get any hits off just depends on the strengths of the teams at that particular moment. As for mallet, it has limited uses I agree, but it definitely has a place with some champs/comps.
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A very shitty example but randuin is still better than mallet.Running in like a retard pressing a button to slow multiple people is a lot more useful.
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EPT
