|
United States47024 Posts
On November 02 2014 09:02 PrinceXizor wrote:
look at how far SC2 fell before LoL got going in korea once the popular koreans started vacating the country. it may not be an immediate issue but damn it's a guaranteed slow death.
That's a legitimate problem, but Kespa's gotta have some pretty damn stupid negotiators to not realize that this is totally irrelevant to anything Riot would try to force on them.
|
On November 02 2014 09:05 TheYango wrote:
It should be readily apparent from how Worlds played out that being a Korean on a non-Korean team doesn't improve your chance of winning Worlds. You'll make more money being a salaried LCS pro (but that's totally irrelevant to "using Worlds as leverage"), but your chance of actually winning Worlds tanks due to having to play with 3 shitter LCS teammates. Even if Korea as a region dropped out of Worlds, the majority of Korean exports would have zero chance of winning.
no i meant the korean exports would win worlds in a scenario that kespa tried to call the bluff and not be allowed in worlds. its hard to lose to a kespa team if they aren't allowed in. leaving the country in that scenario would absolutely increase your chance of winning worlds infinitely.
|
United States47024 Posts
On November 02 2014 09:09 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 09:05 TheYango wrote:
It should be readily apparent from how Worlds played out that being a Korean on a non-Korean team doesn't improve your chance of winning Worlds. You'll make more money being a salaried LCS pro (but that's totally irrelevant to "using Worlds as leverage"), but your chance of actually winning Worlds tanks due to having to play with 3 shitter LCS teammates. Even if Korea as a region dropped out of Worlds, the majority of Korean exports would have zero chance of winning. no i meant the korean exports would win worlds in a scenario that kespa tried to call the bluff and not be allowed in worlds. its hard to lose to a kespa team if they aren't allowed in.
Read what I said:
Even if Korea as a region dropped out of Worlds, the majority of Korean exports would have zero chance of winning.
Even if there were no Kespa teams in Worlds, trying to win Worlds by joining and trying to carry team where you don't fluently speak a common language with 3 players who are way worse than you is essentially trying to win the lottery.
Again, the LCS salary money (or Chinese billionaire salary money as it may be) is a more practical incentive for Korean exports than the chance at winning Worlds. Worlds should have little, if any impact on that, relatively speaking.
|
On November 02 2014 09:10 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 09:09 PrinceXizor wrote:On November 02 2014 09:05 TheYango wrote:
It should be readily apparent from how Worlds played out that being a Korean on a non-Korean team doesn't improve your chance of winning Worlds. You'll make more money being a salaried LCS pro (but that's totally irrelevant to "using Worlds as leverage"), but your chance of actually winning Worlds tanks due to having to play with 3 shitter LCS teammates. Even if Korea as a region dropped out of Worlds, the majority of Korean exports would have zero chance of winning. no i meant the korean exports would win worlds in a scenario that kespa tried to call the bluff and not be allowed in worlds. its hard to lose to a kespa team if they aren't allowed in. Read what I said: Show nested quote +Even if Korea as a region dropped out of Worlds, the majority of Korean exports would have zero chance of winning. Even if there were no Kespa teams in Worlds, trying to win Worlds by joining and trying to carry team where you don't fluently speak a common language with 3 players who are way worse than you is essentially trying to win the lottery.
and then you look at SHRC with a korean import.
|
United States47024 Posts
Insec and Zero won the lottery. That doesn't make the odds good when you look at all the shit teams that Koreans left the country to join and got nowhere. Most of them didn't even make it to Worlds.
They're still better off thanks to the LCS/Chinese billionaire salary money, but Worlds had little-to-no impact on them and the practicality of their decision.
Like, of course the conditions are good right now for Koreans to leave Korea and dominate other regions. But the ability or inability for Korea to participate in Worlds doesn't change this because the likely return from a shot at Worlds is still probably a lot lower than the assured return of their salary and being able to shit on the LCS regional prize pool. Both of which have no relevance to Korean participation in Worlds.
|
On November 02 2014 09:11 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 09:10 TheYango wrote:On November 02 2014 09:09 PrinceXizor wrote:On November 02 2014 09:05 TheYango wrote:
It should be readily apparent from how Worlds played out that being a Korean on a non-Korean team doesn't improve your chance of winning Worlds. You'll make more money being a salaried LCS pro (but that's totally irrelevant to "using Worlds as leverage"), but your chance of actually winning Worlds tanks due to having to play with 3 shitter LCS teammates. Even if Korea as a region dropped out of Worlds, the majority of Korean exports would have zero chance of winning. no i meant the korean exports would win worlds in a scenario that kespa tried to call the bluff and not be allowed in worlds. its hard to lose to a kespa team if they aren't allowed in. Read what I said: Even if Korea as a region dropped out of Worlds, the majority of Korean exports would have zero chance of winning. Even if there were no Kespa teams in Worlds, trying to win Worlds by joining and trying to carry team where you don't fluently speak a common language with 3 players who are way worse than you is essentially trying to win the lottery. and then you look at SHRC with a korean import.
Uzi is just that good. Not every korean leaving korea is going to be on a team with a player of uzi's skill.
|
United States47024 Posts
Most of them are going to end up on teams like CLG or EG which are unsalvageable and they spend their year simultaneously rolling in LCS money and losing their will to live.
|
On November 02 2014 09:09 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 09:05 TheYango wrote:
It should be readily apparent from how Worlds played out that being a Korean on a non-Korean team doesn't improve your chance of winning Worlds. You'll make more money being a salaried LCS pro (but that's totally irrelevant to "using Worlds as leverage"), but your chance of actually winning Worlds tanks due to having to play with 3 shitter LCS teammates. Even if Korea as a region dropped out of Worlds, the majority of Korean exports would have zero chance of winning. no i meant the korean exports would win worlds in a scenario that kespa tried to call the bluff and not be allowed in worlds. its hard to lose to a kespa team if they aren't allowed in. leaving the country in that scenario would absolutely increase your chance of winning worlds infinitely.
Except you know what happens then? Fans will ALWAYS question the legitimacy of a world champion if they don't beat a Korean team to do so.
|
United States47024 Posts
What seems more likely to me is that Kespa (i.e. the teams) were already in favor of a change that would simultaneously break Samsung dominance and protect their investment (since the LCS format heavily favors teams already in the league and keeping them in it), and OGN being resistant to the change given their investment already made in promoting and organizing OGN Winter--and Riot's input simply acted as a deciding vote to break the deadlock. That level of input into the decision seems reasonable to me.
|
What baffles me about this whole discussion going on here at the moment is that not only do all other LoL regions already use a league format, but pretty much every major team sport out there uses a similar system. If the OGN style, serial knockout tournament style is so fucking superior, don't you think the multi-billion dollar sports industry would be using it all over the place? But they don't, and I'm sure there are good reasons (my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top).
|
United States47024 Posts
Well, using the LCS format doesn't require the abolition of OGN Winter or the one-team-per-organization rule, which are the 2 most contentious changes, not the change to the LCS format itself.
On November 02 2014 09:48 Goragoth wrote:(my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top)
It's actually less exposure for lower-tier teams when the league itself is too small to accomodate them, which was the case with the LCS-style leagues up until now (which is why LCS and LPL are both being expanded this season) and will be true of OGN because at its onset, OGN will be only 8 teams like LCS and LPL were.
|
On November 02 2014 09:48 Goragoth wrote:
What baffles me about this whole discussion going on here at the moment is that not only do all other LoL regions already use a league format, but pretty much every major team sport out there uses a similar system. If the OGN style, serial knockout tournament style is so fucking superior, don't you think the multi-billion dollar sports industry would be using it all over the place? But they don't, and I'm sure there are good reasons (my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top).
Tennis.
|
On November 02 2014 09:48 Goragoth wrote:
What baffles me about this whole discussion going on here at the moment is that not only do all other LoL regions already use a league format, but pretty much every major team sport out there uses a similar system. If the OGN style, serial knockout tournament style is so fucking superior, don't you think the multi-billion dollar sports industry would be using it all over the place? But they don't, and I'm sure there are good reasons (my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top).
The closest thing to LCS is the english premiere league system, but even that isn't as protectionist toward its teams. In the premiere league your club lives or dies on its own merits, it doesn't have to be absolute garbage in order to drop out, and even if it drops it still competes in a league that matters.
On November 02 2014 09:55 Zess wrote:
Tennis.
and golf, bowling, poker, shit even college backetball is pretty much like that.
|
Comparing sports teams to LoL in terms of format makes no sense. In sports like hockey, football, basketball, etc, teams need to sell tickets to make money. In LoL, teams don't own stadiums.
|
On November 02 2014 09:48 Goragoth wrote:
What baffles me about this whole discussion going on here at the moment is that not only do all other LoL regions already use a league format, but pretty much every major team sport out there uses a similar system. If the OGN style, serial knockout tournament style is so fucking superior, don't you think the multi-billion dollar sports industry would be using it all over the place? But they don't, and I'm sure there are good reasons (my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top).
Its because every major sports league is run by the entrenched teams (think LCS being controlled by TSM and CLG) who also control how players enter the scene. Its better for owners who get stability (usually at the expense of players). Sometimes its good for fans, sometimes its not. Most fans seem to find the LCS regular season boring, so in this situation its a net negative. Most fans also perceive the #1 issue in esports to be a lack of earning power for players in the pro scene who are not elite, which the switch banning sister teams is not great for (you really need to make at least 5x what a college grad makes to justify going into esports IMO).
If you prefer 2 seasons to 3 seasons and prefer a regular season + 1 week tournament over a 6 week tournament its also a net gain for you. Its just most people dont prefer those things.
|
On November 02 2014 10:04 GolemMadness wrote:
Comparing sports teams to LoL in terms of format makes no sense. In sports like hockey, football, basketball, etc, teams need to sell tickets to make money. In LoL, teams don't own stadiums.
They do need to take part in tournaments to appease sponsors though.
|
On November 02 2014 09:55 Zess wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 09:48 Goragoth wrote:
What baffles me about this whole discussion going on here at the moment is that not only do all other LoL regions already use a league format, but pretty much every major team sport out there uses a similar system. If the OGN style, serial knockout tournament style is so fucking superior, don't you think the multi-billion dollar sports industry would be using it all over the place? But they don't, and I'm sure there are good reasons (my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top). Tennis.
Is not a team sport and it should be blindingly obvious what the differences are. Tennis players make sponsorship money primarily through selling their image in advertising and not through giving exposure to the sponsor as part of their branding.
On November 02 2014 09:53 TheYango wrote:Well, using the LCS format doesn't require the abolition of OGN Winter or the one-team-per-organization rule, which are the 2 most contentious changes, not the change to the LCS format itself. Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 09:48 Goragoth wrote:(my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top) It's actually less exposure for lower-tier teams when the league itself is too small to accomodate them, which was the case with the LCS-style leagues up until now (which is why LCS and LPL are both being expanded this season) and will be true of OGN because at its onset, OGN will be only 8 teams like LCS and LPL were.
I am assuming that there will be a lower league of some kind in addition to the 8 team major league for the other teams.
|
On November 02 2014 10:05 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 09:48 Goragoth wrote:
What baffles me about this whole discussion going on here at the moment is that not only do all other LoL regions already use a league format, but pretty much every major team sport out there uses a similar system. If the OGN style, serial knockout tournament style is so fucking superior, don't you think the multi-billion dollar sports industry would be using it all over the place? But they don't, and I'm sure there are good reasons (my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top). Its because every major sports league is run by the entrenched teams (think LCS being controlled by TSM and CLG) who also control how players enter the scene. Its better for owners who get stability (usually at the expense of players). Sometimes its good for fans, sometimes its not. Most fans seem to find the LCS regular season boring, so in this situation its a net negative. Most fans also perceive the #1 issue in esports to be a lack of earning power for players in the pro scene who are not elite, which the switch banning sister teams is not great for (you really need to make at least 5x what a college grad makes to justify going into esports IMO). If you prefer 2 seasons to 3 seasons and prefer a regular season + 1 week tournament over a 6 week tournament its also a net gain for you. Its just most people dont prefer those things.
Nobody cares what's better for the fans or the players. It's about what's better for the teams/sponsors because that's where the money is. The fans are the product, just like the viewers of ad-sponsored TV are. Always follow the money.
|
On November 02 2014 10:11 Goragoth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 10:05 cLutZ wrote:On November 02 2014 09:48 Goragoth wrote:
What baffles me about this whole discussion going on here at the moment is that not only do all other LoL regions already use a league format, but pretty much every major team sport out there uses a similar system. If the OGN style, serial knockout tournament style is so fucking superior, don't you think the multi-billion dollar sports industry would be using it all over the place? But they don't, and I'm sure there are good reasons (my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top). Its because every major sports league is run by the entrenched teams (think LCS being controlled by TSM and CLG) who also control how players enter the scene. Its better for owners who get stability (usually at the expense of players). Sometimes its good for fans, sometimes its not. Most fans seem to find the LCS regular season boring, so in this situation its a net negative. Most fans also perceive the #1 issue in esports to be a lack of earning power for players in the pro scene who are not elite, which the switch banning sister teams is not great for (you really need to make at least 5x what a college grad makes to justify going into esports IMO). If you prefer 2 seasons to 3 seasons and prefer a regular season + 1 week tournament over a 6 week tournament its also a net gain for you. Its just most people dont prefer those things. Nobody cares what's better for the fans or the players. It's about what's better for the teams/sponsors because that's where the money is. The fans are the product, just like the viewers of ad-sponsored TV are. Always follow the money.
You said it baffled you that fans were complaining about a switch away from a fan-friendly format...
The defense of such baffle is not saying that fans don't matter. That perception is exactly why fans are upset.
|
On November 02 2014 10:11 Goragoth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 10:05 cLutZ wrote:On November 02 2014 09:48 Goragoth wrote:
What baffles me about this whole discussion going on here at the moment is that not only do all other LoL regions already use a league format, but pretty much every major team sport out there uses a similar system. If the OGN style, serial knockout tournament style is so fucking superior, don't you think the multi-billion dollar sports industry would be using it all over the place? But they don't, and I'm sure there are good reasons (my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top). Its because every major sports league is run by the entrenched teams (think LCS being controlled by TSM and CLG) who also control how players enter the scene. Its better for owners who get stability (usually at the expense of players). Sometimes its good for fans, sometimes its not. Most fans seem to find the LCS regular season boring, so in this situation its a net negative. Most fans also perceive the #1 issue in esports to be a lack of earning power for players in the pro scene who are not elite, which the switch banning sister teams is not great for (you really need to make at least 5x what a college grad makes to justify going into esports IMO). If you prefer 2 seasons to 3 seasons and prefer a regular season + 1 week tournament over a 6 week tournament its also a net gain for you. Its just most people dont prefer those things. Nobody cares what's better for the fans or the players. It's about what's better for the teams/sponsors because that's where the money is. The fans are the product, just like the viewers of ad-sponsored TV are. Always follow the money.
And if you want to make that sweet sweet ad money you care about the fans because that's the only way you're going to get it. If you care about the fans, you care about the players because that's why they watch a league over another.
On November 02 2014 10:08 Goragoth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 09:55 Zess wrote:On November 02 2014 09:48 Goragoth wrote:
What baffles me about this whole discussion going on here at the moment is that not only do all other LoL regions already use a league format, but pretty much every major team sport out there uses a similar system. If the OGN style, serial knockout tournament style is so fucking superior, don't you think the multi-billion dollar sports industry would be using it all over the place? But they don't, and I'm sure there are good reasons (my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top). Tennis. Is not a team sport and it should be blindingly obvious what the differences are. Tennis players make sponsorship money primarily through selling their image in advertising and not through giving exposure to the sponsor as part of their branding. Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 09:53 TheYango wrote:Well, using the LCS format doesn't require the abolition of OGN Winter or the one-team-per-organization rule, which are the 2 most contentious changes, not the change to the LCS format itself. On November 02 2014 09:48 Goragoth wrote:(my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top) It's actually less exposure for lower-tier teams when the league itself is too small to accomodate them, which was the case with the LCS-style leagues up until now (which is why LCS and LPL are both being expanded this season) and will be true of OGN because at its onset, OGN will be only 8 teams like LCS and LPL were. I am assuming that there will be a lower league of some kind in addition to the 8 team major league for the other teams.
A lower league with reserve players from the high level tournament has already been announced.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
