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On November 02 2014 10:14 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 10:11 Goragoth wrote:On November 02 2014 10:05 cLutZ wrote:On November 02 2014 09:48 Goragoth wrote:
What baffles me about this whole discussion going on here at the moment is that not only do all other LoL regions already use a league format, but pretty much every major team sport out there uses a similar system. If the OGN style, serial knockout tournament style is so fucking superior, don't you think the multi-billion dollar sports industry would be using it all over the place? But they don't, and I'm sure there are good reasons (my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top). Its because every major sports league is run by the entrenched teams (think LCS being controlled by TSM and CLG) who also control how players enter the scene. Its better for owners who get stability (usually at the expense of players). Sometimes its good for fans, sometimes its not. Most fans seem to find the LCS regular season boring, so in this situation its a net negative. Most fans also perceive the #1 issue in esports to be a lack of earning power for players in the pro scene who are not elite, which the switch banning sister teams is not great for (you really need to make at least 5x what a college grad makes to justify going into esports IMO). If you prefer 2 seasons to 3 seasons and prefer a regular season + 1 week tournament over a 6 week tournament its also a net gain for you. Its just most people dont prefer those things. Nobody cares what's better for the fans or the players. It's about what's better for the teams/sponsors because that's where the money is. The fans are the product, just like the viewers of ad-sponsored TV are. Always follow the money. You said it baffled you that fans were complaining about a switch away from a fan-friendly format... The defense of such baffle is not saying that fans don't matter. That perception is exactly why fans are upset.
No, what confuses me about the discussion isn't that fans don't like it, it's that some people think that Riot would force OGN/KeSPA into a move that is against their (financial) own interest. My assertion is that this move is probably a good business decision by the Koreans, or at least they think it is, and I seriously doubt Riot did any more than politely suggest this move. To suggest strongarm tactics like withholding invitations to Worlds is simply ludicrous.
On November 02 2014 10:16 Gahlo wrote:
And if you want to make that sweet sweet ad money you care about the fans because that's the only way you're going to get it. If you care about the fans, you care about the players because that's why they watch a league over another.
Somewhat but not entirely. Once again, the fans are the product. They are just eyeballs to be sold to the highest bidder. Sure, they want to keep the fans happy enough to keep watching but beyond that they largely don't care. Of course we don't have access to their internal documents but it would be naive to think that they didn't crunch the numbers and make a number of deals with sponsors before announcing this huge change. Remember, in Korea more than anywhere else this is a business. It isn't about passion for eSports, it's about making money.
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United States47024 Posts
Given the relative levels of interest in Challenger vs LCS, I'd question whether a lower league gives more overall exposure than group stage in the primary league.
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On November 02 2014 10:41 Goragoth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 10:16 Gahlo wrote:
And if you want to make that sweet sweet ad money you care about the fans because that's the only way you're going to get it. If you care about the fans, you care about the players because that's why they watch a league over another. Somewhat but not entirely. Once again, the fans are the product. They are just eyeballs to be sold to the highest bidder. Sure, they want to keep the fans happy enough to keep watching but beyond that they largely don't care. Of course we don't have access to their internal documents but it would be naive to think that they didn't crunch the numbers and make a number of deals with sponsors before announcing this huge change. Remember, in Korea more than anywhere else this is a business. It isn't about passion for eSports, it's about making money.
Yeah, and that's why before this whole shakeup happened Korean players started leaving. You can only treat the players like shit for so long when there are viable alternatives.
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On November 02 2014 10:50 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 10:41 Goragoth wrote:On November 02 2014 10:16 Gahlo wrote:
And if you want to make that sweet sweet ad money you care about the fans because that's the only way you're going to get it. If you care about the fans, you care about the players because that's why they watch a league over another. Somewhat but not entirely. Once again, the fans are the product. They are just eyeballs to be sold to the highest bidder. Sure, they want to keep the fans happy enough to keep watching but beyond that they largely don't care. Of course we don't have access to their internal documents but it would be naive to think that they didn't crunch the numbers and make a number of deals with sponsors before announcing this huge change. Remember, in Korea more than anywhere else this is a business. It isn't about passion for eSports, it's about making money. Yeah, and that's why before this whole shakeup happened Korean players started leaving. You can only treat the players like shit for so long when there are viable alternatives.
the players that left before the format changes were mostly players that were losing their spots to new talent anyway.
its undeniable that the rate of players leaving korea has increased and affected more players in top form since the format changes were decided.
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On November 02 2014 10:55 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 10:50 Gahlo wrote:On November 02 2014 10:41 Goragoth wrote:On November 02 2014 10:16 Gahlo wrote:
And if you want to make that sweet sweet ad money you care about the fans because that's the only way you're going to get it. If you care about the fans, you care about the players because that's why they watch a league over another. Somewhat but not entirely. Once again, the fans are the product. They are just eyeballs to be sold to the highest bidder. Sure, they want to keep the fans happy enough to keep watching but beyond that they largely don't care. Of course we don't have access to their internal documents but it would be naive to think that they didn't crunch the numbers and make a number of deals with sponsors before announcing this huge change. Remember, in Korea more than anywhere else this is a business. It isn't about passion for eSports, it's about making money. Yeah, and that's why before this whole shakeup happened Korean players started leaving. You can only treat the players like shit for so long when there are viable alternatives. the players that left before the format changes were mostly players that were losing their spots to new talent anyway. its undeniable that the rate of players leaving korea has increased and affected more players in top form since the format changes were decided.
Sounds to me like Kakao was fully ready to leave when he didn't qualify for worlds.
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I think that even if the format change didn't directly "cause" the massive departure of players, it can only add fuel to fire and it certainly amplified the movement.
Imagine if someone walks up to you and tells you : "Oh, you were paid like shit already, and now you're not even going to play with the big boys, there's a sandbox for you and the other players no one gives a shit about." There's a moment when you say enough is enough and you pack your bags imo.
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On November 02 2014 09:48 Goragoth wrote:
What baffles me about this whole discussion going on here at the moment is that not only do all other LoL regions already use a league format, but pretty much every major team sport out there uses a similar system. If the OGN style, serial knockout tournament style is so fucking superior, don't you think the multi-billion dollar sports industry would be using it all over the place? But they don't, and I'm sure there are good reasons (my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top).
Do you even tennis?
Also a ton of combat sports have knockout tourney format
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On November 02 2014 12:26 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 09:48 Goragoth wrote:
What baffles me about this whole discussion going on here at the moment is that not only do all other LoL regions already use a league format, but pretty much every major team sport out there uses a similar system. If the OGN style, serial knockout tournament style is so fucking superior, don't you think the multi-billion dollar sports industry would be using it all over the place? But they don't, and I'm sure there are good reasons (my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top). Do you even tennis? Also a ton of combat sports have knockout tourney format
Do you even read?
Stop brining up single-participant sports when the discussion is explicitly about team sports.
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On November 02 2014 13:40 ChaoSbringer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 12:26 wei2coolman wrote:On November 02 2014 09:48 Goragoth wrote:
What baffles me about this whole discussion going on here at the moment is that not only do all other LoL regions already use a league format, but pretty much every major team sport out there uses a similar system. If the OGN style, serial knockout tournament style is so fucking superior, don't you think the multi-billion dollar sports industry would be using it all over the place? But they don't, and I'm sure there are good reasons (my guess is that it increases exposure of the lower-tier teams, making it more lucrative for smaller sponsors to invest, who know that their team won't be near the top). Do you even tennis? Also a ton of combat sports have knockout tourney format Do you even read? Stop brining up single-participant sports when the discussion is explicitly about team sports.
I don't get what's the big difference between single-participant sport between team in regards to tourney format? Especially considering how stagnant the lineup teams are within a season/split/tourney.
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It's just that the post you quoted explicitly stated Team sports in it.
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On November 02 2014 14:01 RagequitBM wrote:
It's just that the post you quoted explicitly stated Team sports in it.
when talking about tournament style he just says sports industry.
it's a moot point anyways, even if talking about team sports, you'd have to preface why team sports should be considered differently than individual sports in regards of tourney format.
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On November 02 2014 14:08 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 14:01 RagequitBM wrote:
It's just that the post you quoted explicitly stated Team sports in it. when talking about tournament style he just says sports industry. it's a moot point anyways, even if talking about team sports, you'd have to preface why team sports should be considered differently than individual sports in regards of tourney format.
I mentioned it in one of my replies on the previous page. It's all about branding and how sponsorship works. In individual sports the players are leveraged as a brand, e.g. by using them in advertising. In team sports the sponsor usually uses the team itself to promote its brand, such as by including the sponsor name in the team name (like the Korean teams mostly do) and through logos and the like on team uniforms.
I mean shit, I don't know much about the sports industry, that's not my area of expertise and if someone who has studied and/or worked in that field wants to come out and tell me I'm wrong, then so be it. From where I'm standing this makes a lot of business sense though (again, I'm just arguing why the decision was made and I'm not making any judgements on whether this is better for the fans/players or not).
I also think that KeSPA probably thought most of the good players would simply shuffle around the Korean teams in this whole shake-up. Instead, it coincided with China throwing silly money around, causing the mass exodus we are now seeing and this might end up hurting the Korean scene in an unintended way. I don't know if anyone saw this coming though.
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On November 02 2014 14:57 Goragoth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 14:08 wei2coolman wrote:On November 02 2014 14:01 RagequitBM wrote:
It's just that the post you quoted explicitly stated Team sports in it. when talking about tournament style he just says sports industry. it's a moot point anyways, even if talking about team sports, you'd have to preface why team sports should be considered differently than individual sports in regards of tourney format. I mentioned it in one of my replies on the previous page. It's all about branding and how sponsorship works. In individual sports the players are leveraged as a brand, e.g. by using them in advertising. In team sports the sponsor usually uses the team itself to promote its brand, such as by including the sponsor name in the team name (like the Korean teams mostly do) and through logos and the like on team uniforms. I mean shit, I don't know much about the sports industry, that's not my area of expertise and if someone who has studied and/or worked in that field wants to come out and tell me I'm wrong, then so be it. From where I'm standing this makes a lot of business sense though (again, I'm just arguing why the decision was made and I'm not making any judgements on whether this is better for the fans/players or not). I also think that KeSPA probably thought most of the good players would simply shuffle around the Korean teams in this whole shake-up. Instead, it coincided with China throwing silly money around, causing the mass exodus we are now seeing and this might end up hurting the Korean scene in an unintended way. I don't know if anyone saw this coming though.
Not including league sponsors, and ignoring player owned brand. There's really not much difference though... The team is being leveraged just like the individual in both case. IMO both season and tourney formats are viable. Personally I sort of dislike the changes, but I don't think Riot plays as big of a role as some might suggest. In my mind it's more like "hey guiz, it would be super cool if you guys create some sort of parity with the other 4 big leagues (gpl,lpl, na lcs, eu lcs), but do w.e you guys want"
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A cursory analysis suggests that sports which rely on "play-ins" to attract new talent would do better with a tournament structure, while sports which have talent cultivation would do better with a regular season. A regular season provides more stability for the sponsors and more opportunity for viewers and interest.
Basically does Korean league suffer from lack of finding talent? Do self organized teams enter the Korean tournaments? I would suggest no on both fronts. Solo queue is a decent scouting mechanism, teams have coaching and organization to further develop players.
Moreover, I think that Koreans will appreciate the bias towards end of season strength that the current LCS structure brings compared to the point entry scheme.
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On November 02 2014 15:30 Goumindong wrote:
A cursory analysis suggests that sports which rely on "play-ins" to attract new talent would do better with a tournament structure, while sports which have talent cultivation would do better with a regular season. A regular season provides more stability for the sponsors and more opportunity for viewers and interest.
Basically does Korean league suffer from lack of finding talent? Do self organized teams enter the Korean tournaments? I would suggest no on both fronts. Solo queue is a decent scouting mechanism, teams have coaching and organization to further develop players.
Moreover, I think that Koreans will appreciate the bias towards end of season strength that the current LCS structure brings compared to the point entry scheme.
I don't know if the players will appreciate it, but the team owners probably do.
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United States47024 Posts
As I said a while ago, the LCS format wasn't even the most contentious part of the changes. As far as I'm aware, more people took issue with the abolition of OGN Winter, and the retention of the one-team-per-organization rule, which LCS/LPL don't even enforce anymore (LPL dropped it a long time ago, and LCS obviously isn't enforcing it if Curse Academy are allowed to participate in LCS expansion). A lot less people would be up in arms if this were a simple format change to OGN that didn't include those two things.
OGN isn't so much switching to the LCS format as much as they are switching to an outdated LCS format of a year ago (i.e. only 8 teams and one-team-per-organization).
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On November 02 2014 16:30 TheYango wrote:
As I said a while ago, the LCS format wasn't even the most contentious part of the changes. As far as I'm aware, more people took issue with the abolition of OGN Winter, and the retention of the one-team-per-organization rule, which LCS/LPL don't even enforce anymore (LPL dropped it a long time ago, and LCS obviously isn't enforcing it if Curse Academy are allowed to participate in LCS expansion). A lot less people would be up in arms if this were a simple format change to OGN that didn't include those two things.
OGN isn't so much switching to the LCS format as much as they are switching to an outdated LCS format of a year ago (i.e. only 8 teams and one-team-per-organization).
A small correction here. Liquid already said they would be selling the Curse Academy team if they actually get into LCS exactly because of the rule enforced by Riot:
http://www.ongamers.com/articles/curse-owner-liquid112-discusses-possible-sale-of-c/1100-2162/
The rule applies for LCS teams only, and owners spending their money to grow the amateur scene/their brand isn't discouraged by Riot afaik
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Adding the one team per organisation requirement is definitely worse than moving to the LCS format. Why wouldn't you want an organisation strong enough to support two or more competitive teams doing anything else? Surely the threat of crowding out small new comers isn't that bad to warrant a one team rule.
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Yeah, not like the new rules allows Korean teams to have 5 reserve players or anything.
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I have a bigger issue with the fact that it's just OGN in Korea. In BW there were MSL/OGN/PL so you have a bit of the consistency of a league format with the thrill of a tournament bracket. It's why the LCS format fails to deliver anything enticing and Korea switching to it is pretty saddening.
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EPT
