I'm gonna throw my 2 cents out and say that removing silences from characters whose core mechanic is to silence people makes as much sense as removing stuns from a character whose core component is to stun someone. Alistar WQ combo has just as little "counter play" as Talons silence. Taric or Sion stuns have less "counter play" than a Kassadin silence. LeBlanc's silence sucked to play against but it wasn't an issue for three years, just like how Talon wasn't an issue until literally every midlaner ever got nerfed.

Idk, Riot constantly neutering everything and the huge downward power curve is really making league stale IMO. Champions just don't feel as dynamic and awesome as they used to because instead of nerfing a champion by making them weaker at what they do poorly Riot nerfs champions by removing their strengths. It's my opinion every champion should have something as awesome as Talon's silence or Yasuo's wind wall or any of the number of skills people bitch about until Riot nerfs it.

nafta

Bulgaria18893 Posts

September 16 2014 14:19 GMT

#904

Wouldn't really compare a combo of 2 skills that can get interrupted or flashed or a slow moving projectile to an instant silence after a blink by an assassin.Even lb/kassadin silence had much more counterplay than talon's since it is instant.

Don't think he should get nerfed but it is a shitty comparison.

Alzadar

Canada5009 Posts

September 16 2014 14:25 GMT

#905

On September 16 2014 20:18 kongoline wrote:
ryze facechecks jax with finished trinity/bortk and still stomps him 1v1 in melee range without any kiting whatsonever, i dont get how this makes any sense

You didn't say what Ryze had. Sounds like Jax had no MR and Ryze probably had Frozen Heart, so Jax was doing like 50% damage to him.

LaNague

Germany9118 Posts

September 16 2014 14:28 GMT

#906

every 6 months riot invents a new word and uses it for everything until they find a new one.

it started with zilean and whatever his word was, something about fun mechanics, i forgot.
then toxic, rivington in the meantime tries to introduce "backside", but he failed.
counterplay is the new riot approved word, seperating the good riot employees from the great ones.

And Ghostgrawler in the meantime has a bandwidth problem.

overt

United States9006 Posts

September 16 2014 14:29 GMT

#907

On September 16 2014 23:19 nafta wrote:
Wouldn't really compare a combo of 2 skills that can get interrupted or flashed or a slow moving projectile to an instant silence after a blink by an assassin.Even lb/kassadin silence had much more counterplay than talon's since it is instant.

Don't think he should get nerfed but it is a shitty comparison.

Main point was that if silences have "no counter play" then stuns have even less "counter play." And the lack of "counter play" is the reasoning Riot has given for removing LB/Kass/Talon silences.

On September 16 2014 23:28 LaNague wrote:
every 6 months riot invents a new word and uses it for everything until they find a new one.

it started with zilean and whatever his word was, something about fun mechanics, i forgot.
then toxic, rivington in the meantime tries to introduce "backside", but he failed.
counterplay is the new riot approved word, seperating the good riot employees from the great ones.

And Ghostgrawler in the meantime has a bandwidth problem.

It was anti-fun. Some things were deemed to be anti-fun so they were removed. That was like two-three years ago though so I don't really remember what they got rid of.

Sufficiency

Canada23833 Posts

September 16 2014 14:32 GMT

#908

Alistar does not have a WQR combo (in an order I am not familiar of) and instantly delete the target.

nafta

Bulgaria18893 Posts

September 16 2014 14:34 GMT

#909

Stun in itself yes but all skills you mentioned are not instant so you can use your escape BEFORE it hits you.You can't do the same with talon.The difference is insane.

Alzadar

Canada5009 Posts

September 16 2014 14:36 GMT

#910

I don't necessarily agree with removing Kass/LB/Talon silences, but you're being obtuse in your interpretation of Riot's reasoning.

Context is everything for what is strong/weak on a champion. There is plenty of counter play to a slow, mediocre damage champion with no gapclosers and a 600 range, slow moving projectile stun. There is much less for a fast champion with huge burst and a 700 range instant gapcloser + silence.

Fusilero

United Kingdom50293 Posts

September 16 2014 14:38 GMT

#911

I'm not a talon expert but isn't removing his silence going to cripple many of his match ups in lane?

Alzadar

Canada5009 Posts

September 16 2014 14:41 GMT

#912

On September 16 2014 23:38 Fusilero wrote:
I'm not a talon expert but isn't removing his silence going to cripple many of his match ups in lane?

Aye.

Talon was probably the one champion who made me a bit afraid as Malzahar, now the Prophet will rule mid lane unopposed.

droserin

127 Posts

September 16 2014 14:42 GMT

#913

The "no counter play" argument is because Kass/LB/Talon are assassins and can burst you 100-0 in the length of their silence. If Alistar stuns you, so probably aren't worried about him killing you before you land.

overt

United States9006 Posts

September 16 2014 14:44 GMT

#914

On September 16 2014 23:36 Alzadar wrote:
I don't necessarily agree with removing Kass/LB/Talon silences, but you're being obtuse in your interpretation of Riot's reasoning.

Context is everything for what is strong/weak on a champion. There is plenty of counter play to a slow, mediocre damage champion with no gapclosers and a 600 range, slow moving projectile stun. There is much less for a fast champion with huge burst and a 700 range instant gapcloser + silence.

There is plenty of counter play to a silence. Even an instant one. Don't get in range of his silence, your allies can peel for you, and the only people he's going to instantly blow up are squishies. Practically no one complained about him for years and now it's only a problem because the entirety of their roster has gotten weaker. Ignoring that my stun comparisons were shit removing every silence from an assassin because there's "no counter play" to it is horrible balance imo.

On September 16 2014 23:38 Fusilero wrote:
I'm not a talon expert but isn't removing his silence going to cripple many of his match ups in lane?

He'll pretty much go back to where he was before his rise in popularity. As in, not played much at all. Unless they give him buffs somewhere else.

Alzadar

Canada5009 Posts

September 16 2014 14:46 GMT

#915

Wait are people going to start complaining about "power decline"? That's too ironic IMO.

Kupon3ss

時の回廊10066 Posts

September 16 2014 14:46 GMT

#916

But that's the whole character design of assassins, to QWER and assassinate you. In the grand scheme of things nerfing and deprecating old characters while continually creating op and exciting new things like yasuo isn't a bad way to go and lifts a lot of the burden off the balance team.

Sufficiency

Canada23833 Posts

September 16 2014 14:50 GMT

#917

On September 16 2014 23:46 Alzadar wrote:
Wait are people going to start complaining about "power decline"? That's too ironic IMO.

That's an interesting point.

Alzadar

Canada5009 Posts

September 16 2014 14:55 GMT

#918

I feel like Talon has always held a place where you don't see him much, but when you do he's scary as fuck. And unlike other assassins who get fed and blow people up, Talon gets fed and blows up your whole goddamn team because half his damage is AoE.

I'd sooner see a reduction of the silence to 0.5s than a total change, because he is an exciting champion if nothing else.

Random thought: would Talon be stronger or weaker if his ult gave him a big tenacity buff instead of stealth?

On September 16 2014 23:46 Kupon3ss wrote:
But that's the whole character design of assassins, to QWER and assassinate you. In the grand scheme of things nerfing and deprecating old characters while continually creating op and exciting new things like yasuo isn't a bad way to go and lifts a lot of the burden off the balance team.

Can you really say this is the case?

Just looking at some random All Stars game as examples:
SKT vs OMG: 7 champions post-Leona, 9 champions pre-Leona (inclusive)
TPA vs FNC: 8 champions post-Leona, 8 champions pre-Leona
C9 vs OMG: 8 champions post-Leona, 8 champions pre-Leona

I use Leona since I started on Leona patch, easiest to judge. I think about 60% of champions are pre-Leona.