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On August 10 2014 14:26 PrinceXizor wrote:
Maokais stats are all very high. except i think mana/mregen? but i could be wrong there.
Why is that surprising? Last time he was an optimal pick he operated as a cc bot with aoe team dr who had to operate with almost no items for most of the game. His spells also used to be pretty weak from a damage perspective without the %hp.
He used to basically be what nunu is now, and nunu needs that to do what he does.
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On August 10 2014 14:46 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2014 14:26 PrinceXizor wrote:
Maokais stats are all very high. except i think mana/mregen? but i could be wrong there. Why is that surprising? Last time he was an optimal pick he operated as a cc bot with aoe team dr who had to operate with almost no items for most of the game. His spells also used to be pretty weak from a damage perspective without the %hp. He used to basically be what nunu is now, and nunu needs that to do what he does.
To be honest, Maokai has good base damage and ratios on his spells. %hp is only really a big difference versus tanky stuff later on in the game, his damage is mostly the same as it was before the "remake"
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his damage actually went down across the board, with the exception of maybe his W.
he's a strong pick now because mana cost buffs let him lane
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His W does less damage for most of laning but scales much better. Maokai isn't much different from S2, but Top lane is way different than S2 with the addition of TP, Flask, and Jax/Irelia nerfs.
Plus no one tried S2 top tree seriously because jungle tree was so good.
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On August 10 2014 15:09 Ryuu314 wrote:
his damage actually went down across the board, with the exception of maybe his W.
he's a strong pick now because mana cost buffs let him lane
Well his ult change is a damage buff, because you can actually get it stacked and blow it up on people. No one would stand in the old mao ult, so if you wanted to get damage out of it you had to just blow it instantly.
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On August 10 2014 15:12 xes wrote:
His W does less damage for most of laning but scales much better. Maokai isn't much different from S2, but Top lane is way different than S2 with the addition of TP, Flask, and Jax/Irelia nerfs.
Plus no one tried S2 top tree seriously because jungle tree was so good.
eh. the mana buffs went a really long way towards letting him lane well. prior to the patch, maokai was ever laned mid where he could hog blue buffs. the mana costs on his spells were lowered like 30~40 each or something ridiculous
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On August 10 2014 16:14 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2014 15:12 xes wrote:
His W does less damage for most of laning but scales much better. Maokai isn't much different from S2, but Top lane is way different than S2 with the addition of TP, Flask, and Jax/Irelia nerfs.
Plus no one tried S2 top tree seriously because jungle tree was so good. eh. the mana buffs went a really long way towards letting him lane well. prior to the patch, maokai was ever laned mid where he could hog blue buffs. the mana costs on his spells were lowered like 30~40 each or something ridiculous
10 on his Q and E, more on his W but you don't max that first (and some pros have been maxing it last).
Ult got a decent mana buff though which helps his teamfighting and a bit of the 1v1. Having the ult move with him also helps a lot in 1v1s.
But still, the landscape for top lane has shifted a lot to make room for Maokai to show up as the latest abusive case of "S4 is all sorts of fucked up."
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Tree and cow being played top is awesome, I love it 
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11589 Posts
The idea that emergent gameplay is "fucked up" is exactly the idea that hurts the development of the metagame of LoL. There's nothing inherently wrong with Maokai being a toplaner, or any champ for that matter.
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So what champs have a good matchup against Ori? Between Ziggs, Lulu, Syndra and Ryze - who does well and who doesn't?
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
On August 10 2014 17:23 AlterKot wrote:
So what champs have a good matchup against Ori? Between Ziggs, Lulu, Syndra and Ryze - who does well and who doesn't?
Diana, Zed does well vs Orianna
Karthus, Yasuo doesn't do well imo
Also Ryze is not good against Orianna imo, Orianna is much favored.
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I don't think the issue is that we're pissed at the Tree or the Cow for being viable in top lane, it's that we're disappointed in that possible counterpicks were nerfed in prior patches or don't fit the expected role/meta anymore. Like I honestly want to see what happens if a couple nerfs were reverted to any of the prior FotM top laners in this season, if they'd be good options due to just doing more early game damage and forcing the Cow or Tree out of lane.
Like what're they gonna do pre-6 when Renekton's slicing through the minions and creeps and just chunking them whenever they go to last hit, or Riven comboing them between level 2-6 and making them blow their mana pool (or even teleport) to remain in lane against her. Heck, Shyvana can probably come back now, get BotRK first against them and just watch them burn alive to her.
On August 10 2014 17:28 739 wrote:
Diana, Zed does well vs Orianna
Karthus, Yasuo doesn't do well imo
Also Ryze is not good against Orianna imo, Orianna is much favored.
Hell, Diana can probably come back now in the AP top lane meta, like imagine her with RoA + Lich Bane in any team fight in the level 8-13 range, she'd wreck all these squishy ADCs with her dive. I can imagine it now: RoA > Lich Bane > Zhonyas > Randuins > BV with CDR or M.Pen boots. And if the mid laner's Yasuo or Ori? Free knockup or sweet ball delivery system.
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On August 10 2014 17:28 Kinie wrote:
Like what're they gonna do pre-6 when Renekton's slicing through the minions and creeps and just chunking them whenever they go to last hit, or Riven comboing them between level 2-6 and making them blow their mana pool (or even teleport) to remain in lane against her. Heck, Shyvana can probably come back now, get BotRK first against them and just watch them burn alive to her.
I think it is kind of silly to try to say this when the likes of Riven, Renekton, and Shyvana (Plus our good friend Shen), basically are the forefathers are the modern top lane meta and are the basic/underlying reasons for most of the balance changes to that lane in the last 12 months.
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On August 10 2014 17:23 AlterKot wrote:
So what champs have a good matchup against Ori? Between Ziggs, Lulu, Syndra and Ryze - who does well and who doesn't?
Out of those, any of them do well apart from Ryze. If I had to pick I'd say Syndra, just because you have the most kill pressure. Having said that though, it's quite hard to get a straight 1v1 kill on a decent Orianna.
My view is that is impossible to counter pick Orianna, so just play a comfort champ.
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On August 10 2014 15:12 xes wrote:
His W does less damage for most of laning but scales much better. Maokai isn't much different from S2, but Top lane is way different than S2 with the addition of TP, Flask, and Jax/Irelia nerfs.
Plus no one tried S2 top tree seriously because jungle tree was so good.
i remember tabzz (back when he was playing mid) using mao in as a counterpick to kat mid, it worked very well i've seen him carry games back then
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Honestly, I think that those tops are fine. You saw some counterpicks start to come out, and I'm sure more will come as pros get more experienced with what works and what doesn't.
Maokai: Loses to people who can either zone him off the wave such that he can't auto attack(swain), or don't need to use spells to harass/clear(cho), or have too much sustain/tankiness for maokai's moderately bursty combo with minimal sustained damage to harass down(nasus, possibly others). Maybe he needs a slight mana nerf on his Q, and possibly slightly lower ramping on his ultimate damage, which is rather ludicrous in early-midgame fights where it's almost nunu ulti level damage, but aside from that he's in a good spot. He doesn't really crowd many champions out through laning, it's much more the teamfighting where he's king.
Ali: Pretty new, but I think his strengths lie in the fact that he's one of the only champs that people won't 3v1 dive at level 2+ if you don't blow CD's. His laning is actually not that strong* until he gets sheen, although his gank assist is deadly.
Also one champ I'm surprised has been underutilized is lissandra. Doesn't do all that well mid against longer ranged stuff, but if you can pick her into something short ranged, or even gap closer reliant, she does quite well. Still has the ult flashing issue, but aside from that, she's a very different, hard initiating AP.
* Does not apply if you get punted into turret range.
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I think we've seen Lissandra a bit in EU LCS and in NLB, but her issue is that you kinda need to build a lot of AP on her, as her AA range is average and the ratios are reasonable, but not fantastic. There's also the issue with her ult and a billion bugs associated with it, and the lack of competitive play isn't really forcing Riot's hand to ban/fix her. She doesn't benefit from Lich Bane either, so you'd be looking to go RoA > Zhonyas > Rabadons with her before going tanky with Randuin and BV. The wave clear is decent, and her Q is kinda spammable once it's maxed (3s CD with no CDR runes) but it's just keeping her alive to deal the damage is the issue.
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lissandra isn't worth learning to play. she's very difficult to play properly and you gain very little over much easier picks. she may be 105% 110% of her rival champions but shes twice as hard. so why risk it.
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On August 10 2014 18:26 Kinie wrote:
I think we've seen Lissandra a bit in EU LCS and in NLB, but her issue is that you kinda need to build a lot of AP on her, as her AA range is average and the ratios are reasonable, but not fantastic. There's also the issue with her ult and a billion bugs associated with it, and the lack of competitive play isn't really forcing Riot's hand to ban/fix her. She doesn't benefit from Lich Bane either, so you'd be looking to go RoA > Zhonyas > Rabadons with her before going tanky with Randuin and BV. The wave clear is decent, and her Q is kinda spammable once it's maxed (3s CD with no CDR runes) but it's just keeping her alive to deal the damage is the issue.
I do agree with the lots of AP point, lategame your primary goal is just to go in, blow all 3 skills on a squishy while damaging the whole team, zhonya and then hopefully your team won the fight already off the massive AoE damage, because otherwise you're in the middle of the enemy team with 1 skill back off CD. I think they could fix liss ulti the same way they did skarner ulti, just instantly root before freezing.
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
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EPT
