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On August 10 2014 18:26 Kinie wrote:
I think we've seen Lissandra a bit in EU LCS and in NLB, but her issue is that you kinda need to build a lot of AP on her, as her AA range is average and the ratios are reasonable, but not fantastic. There's also the issue with her ult and a billion bugs associated with it, and the lack of competitive play isn't really forcing Riot's hand to ban/fix her. She doesn't benefit from Lich Bane either, so you'd be looking to go RoA > Zhonyas > Rabadons with her before going tanky with Randuin and BV. The wave clear is decent, and her Q is kinda spammable once it's maxed (3s CD with no CDR runes) but it's just keeping her alive to deal the damage is the issue.
Lich Bane isn't a bad item on her at all. She procs it easily with low cooldown Q and is generally always in AA range. It's more of an issue with what do you leave out to get it. You wouldn't get Rabadon's either, rather DFG (if your job is to kill a high priority target) or Void Staff.
To put my two cents in on Lissandra (she's my most played this season, so she's close to my heart), the reason that she isn't seen regularly at top (e.g. LCS) level is because she is very easy to counter in lane. She can't be picked early, because the opponent can easily pick say, Kayle, and give her a free ride into a beast late game. She needs to be left til last pick to see if she can get a favourable match up, which she has several of, but aren't necessarily regular LCS picks.
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I'm just glad I don't have to hear Korean Lissandra whooping it up.
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the only way to play liss is to go full yolo with dmg pretty much dfg rush if youre doing well or get 20% cdr item into dcap+void, should only really being going tank build[20%cdr>zhonyas] if youre doing ranked 5s where you have a comp that can actually function off all the control she gives or if youre getting shit on. once you have dfg you can pretty much 100 to 0 a squishy and its ez to catch people out and farming with her is pretty ez once you hit 7 a couple of autos+2 qs clears a wave and youre free to roam/do wraiths. the biggest downside to liss is her lane phase, she just gets shit on hard by ap mages like ziggs/ori/syndra/cass
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On August 10 2014 19:11 Gahlo wrote:
I'm just glad I don't have to hear Korean Lissandra whooping it up.
Less Korean liss, more kawaii as fuck Korean lulu :3
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Actually lissandra has been seeing some play as of this patch.Top lane ofc(soloq).Dunno wtf is px talking about she really isn't very hard to play at all.
Not to mention that not playing a champ because they are too hard makes 0 sense.
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On August 10 2014 18:46 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2014 18:26 Kinie wrote:
I think we've seen Lissandra a bit in EU LCS and in NLB, but her issue is that you kinda need to build a lot of AP on her, as her AA range is average and the ratios are reasonable, but not fantastic. There's also the issue with her ult and a billion bugs associated with it, and the lack of competitive play isn't really forcing Riot's hand to ban/fix her. She doesn't benefit from Lich Bane either, so you'd be looking to go RoA > Zhonyas > Rabadons with her before going tanky with Randuin and BV. The wave clear is decent, and her Q is kinda spammable once it's maxed (3s CD with no CDR runes) but it's just keeping her alive to deal the damage is the issue. I do agree with the lots of AP point, lategame your primary goal is just to go in, blow all 3 skills on a squishy while damaging the whole team, zhonya and then hopefully your team won the fight already off the massive AoE damage, because otherwise you're in the middle of the enemy team with 1 skill back off CD. I think they could fix liss ulti the same way they did skarner ulti, just instantly root before freezing.
i would almost never recommend using the claw to go in for teamfights. onyl exception would maybe be with an ori mid and you are setting up the ball. maybe... but even then.
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what... it really depends on how the game is going, if youre team is winning it is probably a lot better to protect your backline by killing their assassins/chunking their frontline and sometimes you have to play like an assassin and just sit back and wait for the enemy team to blow cds and claw in and kill a squishy. saying is you dont recommend using the claw to go into a tf is retarded as fuck... if you are the first to go in 9/10 you'll just flat out die because you'll get chain cc'd because its ez for the enemy to set up cc where you are going to land. its all about being patient like as if you were a zed or talon just wait for the cc/moblity spells to be used then ram your dick up their ass
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'cept, you know, Lissandra's ranges force you to burn Flash or Claw to get close enough to burst your target. Then with all the mobility and the long range of your typical targets (seriously, fuck Ziggs and Ahri and all that, and moving from Lucian too Tristana isn't kind to her either) you're going to telegraph it anyway and give them ample time to move away from the claw, unless you use it over a wall or they're already busy because of your teammates, so Lissandra as an initiate isn't that easy.
Otherwise she actually does well against the likes of Renekton, Riven, Nasus in lane ('cept if Riven flashes on her but that's true for everyone then), and you'd obviously never send her mid against shit like Ziggs who facerolls and goes to wank in his corner while he clears and poke outside of your reach for less mana than you (her Q is super costly early on, making it super important to manage her passive).
Her differing ranges (DFG > Q > R > W, but especially the R > W part) also make it awkward to combo with her without airballing something or getting jumped on because she has to stand some time in the middle of people.
On August 10 2014 14:15 zer0das wrote:
So I was looking at champion armor values at level 18, and Maokai is 94 (highest in the game tied with Poppy), which about 10 more than the average bruiser and is a whopping 22.4 more than Trundle. Wut.
He's a tank: good base stats, average at best scaling (the damage is rather good, but getting saplings explosions consistently isn't easy, and getting off QW damage when you don't build tanky is akin to suicide when behind or past midgame). Trundle has less because of his ult, tbh I'm more surprised champions like Jayce or Shyvana don't have lower stats considering their own huge defensive steroids.
On August 10 2014 15:12 xes wrote:
His W does less damage for most of laning but scales much better. Maokai isn't much different from S2, but Top lane is way different than S2 with the addition of TP, Flask, and Jax/Irelia nerfs.
Plus no one tried S2 top tree seriously because jungle tree was so good.
They also played him AP everytime, or RoA->Triforce.
Also you want an uber-protector currently with marksmen back to being gods. In the poke meta we had previously, apart from maybe counterpicking LB (with W > Distortion) he wouldn't have brought much. Maybe in the assassin meta with his ult? Not sure if he could have laned back then, match-ups-wise.
On August 10 2014 17:28 Kinie wrote:
I don't think the issue is that we're pissed at the Tree or the Cow for being viable in top lane, it's that we're disappointed in that possible counterpicks were nerfed in prior patches or don't fit the expected role/meta anymore. Like I honestly want to see what happens if a couple nerfs were reverted to any of the prior FotM top laners in this season, if they'd be good options due to just doing more early game damage and forcing the Cow or Tree out of lane.
Like what're they gonna do pre-6 when Renekton's slicing through the minions and creeps and just chunking them whenever they go to last hit, or Riven comboing them between level 2-6 and making them blow their mana pool (or even teleport) to remain in lane against her. Heck, Shyvana can probably come back now, get BotRK first against them and just watch them burn alive to her.
Need-beefy-frontline-while-bowing-to-your-marksman-god-meta. Shyvana isn't a good protector because she's hard to kill and has a bunch of damage, but no peeling. She's a bruiser, not a tank, and bruisers get their face caved in atm by marksmen with IE.
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On August 10 2014 19:45 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2014 18:46 Amui wrote:On August 10 2014 18:26 Kinie wrote:
I think we've seen Lissandra a bit in EU LCS and in NLB, but her issue is that you kinda need to build a lot of AP on her, as her AA range is average and the ratios are reasonable, but not fantastic. There's also the issue with her ult and a billion bugs associated with it, and the lack of competitive play isn't really forcing Riot's hand to ban/fix her. She doesn't benefit from Lich Bane either, so you'd be looking to go RoA > Zhonyas > Rabadons with her before going tanky with Randuin and BV. The wave clear is decent, and her Q is kinda spammable once it's maxed (3s CD with no CDR runes) but it's just keeping her alive to deal the damage is the issue. I do agree with the lots of AP point, lategame your primary goal is just to go in, blow all 3 skills on a squishy while damaging the whole team, zhonya and then hopefully your team won the fight already off the massive AoE damage, because otherwise you're in the middle of the enemy team with 1 skill back off CD. I think they could fix liss ulti the same way they did skarner ulti, just instantly root before freezing. i would almost never recommend using the claw to go in for teamfights. onyl exception would maybe be with an ori mid and you are setting up the ball. maybe... but even then.
What sort of rubbish is this? Honestly what the hell are you supposed to do then?
You generally have one of two jobs as Liss, which depend on your team. Either you are DFG ulting a squishy target or W then ulting yourself to initiate/lock down their team. Both require you to get up close and personal, which is the entire reason the claw exists. Her kit needs a gap closer and you are absolutely deluded if you think she shouldn't use it.
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Do you guys think vlad might make a comeback? Vlad has always been they guy to outsustain and shit all over full tanks. While mao and alistar can be a pain in the ass in the early levels, there is literally nothing they can do about him later in the game except for constantly ganking him.
The only problem i see is that maokais and alistars utility is just retarded. And i am not so sure if it is possible to make good use of vlads ult in teamfights against them
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
Why is Alistar utility retarded? Alistar been there for lot of time and he started to appear as a top laner recently. Previously he was being used rather ocassionaly and no1 ever complained. Please no nerfs to Alistar.
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alistar was always late game monster it was his early game which stopped people from playing him
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Man. Toplane cow has been the best thing to happen in League for a long time. Litterally all games since it've become a thing has been hilarious and without any toxic players. I don't know if we're playing him wrong in the low plat MMR, but the constant headbutting and super strong disengage+gankassistance has made toplane a battlefield from the get go which spills into midlane the instant cow gets boots2 and ultimately botlane too thanks to teleport/the midlaners being infected by the toplaners "bloodlust".
The first few minutes the non-cow toplaner is being a bit aggrevated but then later everyone is enjoying themselves in the glorious bloodshed. On average I think I've gotten/given 6 honors in all cow games I've been part of as any role.
I guess the only thing better than being part of an Alistar alley-oop kill is taking down said cow, so smiles all abroad, lol.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
So meanwhile in LPL both an orianna and mid koggles has a spirit of spectral wraith, thoughts?
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
Spectral Wraith was being build on Heimer mid iirc.
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On August 10 2014 21:01 Jek wrote:
Man. Toplane cow has been the best thing to happen in League for a long time. Litterally all games since it've become a thing has been hilarious and without any toxic players. I don't know if we're playing him wrong in the low plat MMR, but the constant headbutting and super strong disengage+gankassistance has made toplane a battlefield from the get go which spills into midlane the instant cow gets boots2 and ultimately botlane too thanks to teleport/the midlaners being infected by the toplaners "bloodlust".
The first few minutes the non-cow toplaner is being a bit aggrevated but then later everyone is enjoying themselves in the glorious bloodshed. On average I think I've gotten/given 6 honors in all cow games I've been part of as any role.
I guess the only thing better than being part of an Alistar alley-oop kill is taking down said cow, so smiles all abroad, lol.
I've played Maokai vs Alistar thrice yesterday, one of the most hilarious matchups.
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On August 10 2014 21:09 Fusilero wrote:
So meanwhile in LPL both an orianna and mid koggles has a spirit of spectral wraith, thoughts?
At first glance it does kind of seem good for laning since mosts mids don't shy away from farming wraiths, so it gives good sustain and in the end 80 ap is not nothing. I'd say it's an item for staying safe and lane for a VERY long time. Also CDR.
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Its also essentially 10 gold per 10s if you are constantly taking wraiths. and the 30% damage can keep you from standing there auto attacking if you are taking the enemy wraiths.
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On August 10 2014 21:09 Fusilero wrote:
So meanwhile in LPL both an orianna and mid koggles has a spirit of spectral wraith, thoughts?
Seems pretty awful unless your plan is to 15 minute baron IMO.
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Its too risky.If you lose control of the wave and start getting shoved into tower the enemy mid won't let you farm the jungle and if you do you'll just lose the lane creeps.You are still going to need a mana item anyway so seems kind of a waste to me.
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EPT
