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Top Lee is so bad after that attack speed nerf, he cant trade against AA'ers - Irelia/Jax/Rengar/Aatrox or even WW anymore
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On August 07 2014 20:56 Scip wrote:http://www.twitch.tv/scipaeus/b/555487583 skip to 3:10 I was explaining some stuff but music too loud, w/e not important going by feel is the wrong approach for runes/masteries and sometimes items, the differences are often too small to notice, math is better. I did it in 2:49 in the video, w/e you can clearly see I can squeeze an extra second out on wolves. Also autoattacked red 1 too many times, coulda just went off and finish it with 2 Qs, I could maybe get it down to 2:47 is I tried a few times.
Ok thanks, I was trying to stand initially where you moved to for the red and not lining them up properly. I've done all the math, but I think that feel can be important as well. I do agree that for this instance the difference might be too small to notice.
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NESL: Team 8 with a comp of Fizz top, Darius jungle, Riven mid, MF ADC and Poppy support. They're playing against Coast, who have a 5 man sub roster and didn't let anyone know until right before the match. Quality stuff.
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to be fair Calitrolz plays Fizz top a lot at least in solo
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On August 08 2014 00:32 LaNague wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 15:10 739 wrote:On August 07 2014 15:07 Eiii wrote:On August 07 2014 12:48 Slusher wrote:
wtb more stuff to spend ip on, 25k and counting on main account.. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cgJi2cM.png) get on my level Ah... sportsmanlike player in 2012 :D Santa Baron summoner icon, nice shit, I'm jelly. i never was banned or warned and i didnt get that stupid icon, i am still salty about that.
Don't worry, you aren't the only one. I don't know how they chose it, and they never revealed the exact requirements for it.
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On August 08 2014 08:52 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 06:48 Gahlo wrote:On August 08 2014 05:16 cLutZ wrote:On August 08 2014 04:43 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 08 2014 00:08 cLutZ wrote:On August 07 2014 17:35 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 yeahno I somewhat disagree with Morello and the people talking about "bring back old jungle" are complete idiots who don't remember what old jungle was like. I think Morello's wrong in the sense that there was never "different ways to succeed" in the jungle. There was only ever one way, it just so happens that in the past, the ways to succeed were different than what they are now. Furthermore, jungling is definitely not a "chain-gank fest" nowadays. The "chain-gank fest" days were what? Season 2 with the nonstop tower dives? Season 1 jungle had probably the least jungle diversity since the jungle was so damn brutal. If you weren't a super sustain jungler you were fucked - if you translate that to modern play, it'd probably be even worse and junglers would be even more marginalized since teams are a lot more coordinated nowadays. Season 2 jungle had two metas so to speak. One where aoe junglers were insanely strong and one where junglers were pure supports. In the meta where aoe is king, variety is also low since if you don't have good aoe, you simply can't compete. Season 3 onwards had mostly jungles who have strong early game power or were support-y because farm is finite and teams realize that you simply can't have 4 farmed champions on the team so junglers get marginalized and only the support (ie naturally tanky with large amounts of base utility) or strong early game (Lee Sin, Elise, etc...) junglers get played. Imo, Riot is never going to be able to create a jungle where any option is viable and if they keep trying to, all they're gonna do is continuously rotate the pool of top tier "viable" junglers. Reverting the jungle and going backwards isn't going to help jungle champion variety, it'll just change the jungler pool to what it was in the past. I kind of disagree with you in this respect: S2 did have a much more diverse jungle. At Worlds alone I can recall Maokai and Shyvana in the same game, with Nocturne, Skarner, Lee, Shen, Cho, maybe even Mundo, Amumu, and Udyr. Now, this could be because of the lack of real optimizing by players, but it shows all sorts of junglers: Powerfarmers, Gankers, "Farm to 6" champs, single target and AOE based. The only real issue with S2's jungle was that the rewards were too low so ganking even on champs like Shyvana was typically better, and that lategame you were really far behind in gold. (Also some people didn't like midlaners taking wraiths). The gold problem has been fixed, the issue is that in giving the jungle more rewards they stupidly assumed that they should buff the difficulty of the jungle (particularly earlygame). The only way to have real jungle diversity is to basically make jungle camps into "capture the flag" type objectives like they were in S2. Not wasting all 5 pots to stay above 20% hp (with super dangerous Lee, Elise, etc sneaking around), is one of the main reasons pros don't pick anything but those types. Those champions you listed were never all strong at the same time. They rotated in and out of the meta throughout Season 2. If you want to talk about champion pools over the entire season, Season 4 has a pretty large pool, too. We've seen Elise, Lee Sin, Eve, Kha, Rengar, Wukong, Pantheon, Nocturne, Skarner, Vi, and Nunu. I even recall a random Zed jungle game. You really want to know why it seems like jungle diversity sucks? Well in the list of junglers of Season 4, almost every single one of them have received major reworks/nerfs during season 4. If they're serious about increasing pick diversity, Riot needs to get their heads out of their asses and realize their current approach to the game isn't working as far as pick diversity is concerned. Whether they start buffing to reach power parity or changing how pick/ban works, their current approach of only nerfing the fotm champions is not going to do shit about pick diversity. Actually, the champions I listed were all played in the knockout stages of the same tournament, during the knockout stages, so your rebuttal is factually inaccurate. Plus, you didn't address my point about jungle monsters killing jungle diversity, and your fix was just nebulous boilerplate "buff more, stop needing fotm" which gets recited ad nauseum but, because your plan doesn't actually address the real issues you would just create new problem champions like the several khazix changes did. The issue is the jungle itself is punishing to all but one type of champion (strong single target, decently tanky early), that other types require being op(like sejuani for like 1 week post rework), or rely on an op item(flare), to be relevant, and those kinds of methods of being relevant are not durable. In other words, they will not stay balanced for long. Buffing weak champions isn't the incorrect way to go about it because Kha'Zix became an issue. That's entirely Riot's fault for fucking up and giving an assassin one of the better defensive steroids in the game. Just as they buff incorrectly, they nerf incorrectly aswell. There is no reason why Kha'Zix sat with 50% DR while stealthed for an entire year, 3.8-4.9 while the nerfs that happened to him hit his damage 7 times. The only reason tank Kha'Zix became as big as it is is because Riot led it that way through shitty vision. Sejuani was never OP. Hell, she even had trouble staying at a competitive level pre nerf because the meta had her sit infront of a tower like an idiot and take poke for the first 5 minutes of the game. All her CC durations were reduced in the rework, which were reduced again when they nerfed her. Her damage was never a problem, yet they just 40% of the scaling off her W. The Golem change was supposed to help her early game and all it did was make her better at what she was good at later and did nothing to help her where she needed it. Flare was balanced after the first nerfs. There was no reason why it was nerfed a second time barely 2 weeks later. There's a reason why Rengar is the only champion in competitive play that builds it, and even then he sits on Madred's for a very extended portion of the game. Champions gaining strength because they finally have proper itemization shouldn't make them labeled as "problems" and have the item gutted 1 month after it came out. Malphite and Nunu were just starting to catch on in soloq when they killed Flare and when it happened they dropped off because they no longer had a place anymore. Riot has time and again been more knee jerk on jungle than any other position in the game. They have 0 fucking clue what they actually want, how to go about it, and when they do finally get something done they decide they don't want that anymore. In short, Riot "balances" the jungle like a teenage girl. So your opinion is what exactly? That the jungle is well designed and Riot can't even stumble into a champion that isn't highly similar to Lee/Elise that is strong for more than 1 or 2 patches? I mean, that opinion is, essentially, that they are intentionally getting "it" wrong.
That the moment it gets to possibly the best situation jungle has ever been, they fuck it all up. Right now I'm in that gif from the notebook(I think?) mode where the dude is going "What do you want?" and she responds "It isn't that simple."
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United States3106 Posts
This is just my opinion, but the season 4 jungle prior to the latest changes on the holy trinity of junglers and to the Elder Stone line was probably the closest they could get to having a jungler be able to carry. Even if you didn't have Lee/Elise/Eve from the jungle, there were still other options that could either become a good secondary tank or even a primary one, or a good bruiser/semi-carry.
The issue is that once laning phase ends you can't get enough gold (due to lack of time or map pressure from enemy team) out of the jungle to remain relevant, and are reliant on getting kills/assists in team fights.
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I have never seen the notebook with a bac under .1 nor without a lady "distracting" me, so I don't really understand the reference. Am I the clueless bro, or is it riot?
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On August 08 2014 12:06 cLutZ wrote:
I have never seen the notebook with a bac under .1 nor without a lady "distracting" me, so I don't really understand the reference. Am I the clueless bro, or is it riot?
I was referring to this being Riot's indecisiveness about what they want the jungle to be:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On August 08 2014 00:31 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 19:37 Numy wrote:On August 07 2014 18:24 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 It's too late. I'm a dota player now. Stop trying to woo me back morello. It's not going to work... well maybe I can try out the new jungle. They have been saying they want farming "carry" junglers for 3 seasons now. Pretty sure nothing will change with new jungle either. I'm not even sure why they think it's a good idea in the first place. I was pretty content with S2 jungle. Felt I had a lot more combat stats when teamfights started breaking out and gank potential. Or maybe I wasn't content and I just know what I'm missing out on now.
But remember, everything was OP season 2. Or at least everything has been nerfed since then.
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United States23745 Posts
On August 08 2014 12:47 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 00:31 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 07 2014 19:37 Numy wrote:On August 07 2014 18:24 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 It's too late. I'm a dota player now. Stop trying to woo me back morello. It's not going to work... well maybe I can try out the new jungle. They have been saying they want farming "carry" junglers for 3 seasons now. Pretty sure nothing will change with new jungle either. I'm not even sure why they think it's a good idea in the first place. I was pretty content with S2 jungle. Felt I had a lot more combat stats when teamfights started breaking out and gank potential. Or maybe I wasn't content and I just know what I'm missing out on now. But remember, everything was OP season 2. Or at least everything has been nerfed since then.
Fuck that. Double GP10 Jungle in Season 2 was super lame.
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On August 08 2014 12:49 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 12:47 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 08 2014 00:31 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 07 2014 19:37 Numy wrote:On August 07 2014 18:24 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 It's too late. I'm a dota player now. Stop trying to woo me back morello. It's not going to work... well maybe I can try out the new jungle. They have been saying they want farming "carry" junglers for 3 seasons now. Pretty sure nothing will change with new jungle either. I'm not even sure why they think it's a good idea in the first place. I was pretty content with S2 jungle. Felt I had a lot more combat stats when teamfights started breaking out and gank potential. Or maybe I wasn't content and I just know what I'm missing out on now. But remember, everything was OP season 2. Or at least everything has been nerfed since then. Fuck that. Double GP10 Jungle in Season 2 was super lame.
I liked S2 jungle, there was a lot more pressure to gank rather than just PvE. Then sightstone + gold buffs happened.
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Edit. Shen'd so my reply made no sense.
On August 08 2014 12:22 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 12:06 cLutZ wrote:
I have never seen the notebook with a bac under .1 nor without a lady "distracting" me, so I don't really understand the reference. Am I the clueless bro, or is it riot? I was referring to this being Riot's indecisiveness about what they want the jungle to be: + Show Spoiler +
I think they are very decisive. They want it to be Lee Sin, Elise, and those champions that can most produce a close facsimile of those two champs during any given patch.
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On August 08 2014 10:28 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 00:32 LaNague wrote:On August 07 2014 15:10 739 wrote:On August 07 2014 15:07 Eiii wrote:On August 07 2014 12:48 Slusher wrote:
wtb more stuff to spend ip on, 25k and counting on main account.. get on my level Ah... sportsmanlike player in 2012 :D Santa Baron summoner icon, nice shit, I'm jelly. i never was banned or warned and i didnt get that stupid icon, i am still salty about that. Don't worry, you aren't the only one. I don't know how they chose it, and they never revealed the exact requirements for it.
That is the most random ass icon in history. Among all my friends only like 2 of us got it even though only one of ten of us has ever received a ban.
Sadly mine will never see the light of day because KT must be represented.
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On August 08 2014 12:49 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 12:47 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 08 2014 00:31 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 07 2014 19:37 Numy wrote:On August 07 2014 18:24 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 It's too late. I'm a dota player now. Stop trying to woo me back morello. It's not going to work... well maybe I can try out the new jungle. They have been saying they want farming "carry" junglers for 3 seasons now. Pretty sure nothing will change with new jungle either. I'm not even sure why they think it's a good idea in the first place. I was pretty content with S2 jungle. Felt I had a lot more combat stats when teamfights started breaking out and gank potential. Or maybe I wasn't content and I just know what I'm missing out on now. But remember, everything was OP season 2. Or at least everything has been nerfed since then. Fuck that. Double GP10 Jungle in Season 2 was super lame.
Which evolved into triple by the end of the season.
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On August 08 2014 12:51 cLutZ wrote:Edit. Shen'd so my reply made no sense. Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 12:22 Gahlo wrote:On August 08 2014 12:06 cLutZ wrote:
I have never seen the notebook with a bac under .1 nor without a lady "distracting" me, so I don't really understand the reference. Am I the clueless bro, or is it riot? I was referring to this being Riot's indecisiveness about what they want the jungle to be: + Show Spoiler + I think they are very decisive. They want it to be Lee Sin, Elise, and those champions that can most produce a close facsimile of those two champs during any given patch.
On the contrary, they spent the entire season shaping the jungle into what it is, then decide they don't want it the way they made it anymore and instead of fixing a few things they tear it all down. They may be making decisions, but they have no fucking idea what they're doing when it comes to what they want.
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I have the santa baron and Traditional Karma, so I'm pretty cool.
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On August 08 2014 13:41 GolemMadness wrote:
I have the santa baron and Traditional Karma, so I'm pretty cool.
Pshh. Who don't?
Also, gahlo, there is nothing wrong with finally recognizing that the jungle has been stagnant despite their efforts for several months and trying to rectify that. The issue is they didn't really recognize what the real issue causing the stagnation(poorly designed jungle monsters). I don't disagree with you that the most recent changes were kind of silly, the disagreement I have with you is I don't think your "fix" would work because it will just give us "Lee lite" aka vi/jarvan/etc.
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I just wanted to be cool. Why did you have to crush my dreams...
I feel like I should start playing Rammus. His win rate has been so high for so long, but nobody ever plays him, and he's just generally considered to be bad.
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If they buffed Viktor Q slighty, I think Viktor would be a top tier pick.
He is a strong champion with a fun playstyle, but his Q is really lackluster. It doesn't do big damage comparative to any other point and click nuke and it has a long relative cool down because it is supposed to be a huge lane bully spell because of the Shield... but it just lacks too much speed and range. Kass gets literally the identical Q, but he gets 50 more range, more damage (and scaling), it moves faster, has a "minisilence" attached and the shield is bigger...
He is put in a weird position in that he needs to have distance due to his lack of mobility, which is fine, he can zone control pretty well but his Q is just a terribly designed skill. He has to be in tight to get any use out of it at all, and without it he doesn't really have what it takes to kill a target. His teamfighting with WER is really strong though.
I'm worried they will kill the Viktor I love.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/What+do+you+wanna+eat_dd4be9_5072939.gif)
