|
They made the jungle camps stronger so they couldn't be killed without using the (slot-inefficient in a vacuum, but very cost-efficient to make up for the mandatory purchase) "jungle spirit" items, to circumvent the issue of the super farming mid laners stealing wraiths, and sometimes even wolves (hi Froggen) thus pauperising the junglers to a high degree.
Of course not that it stops Ziggs or Ahri or Orianna or Lulu from taking wraiths, they just take longer to do it.
|
On August 07 2014 19:37 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 18:24 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 It's too late. I'm a dota player now. Stop trying to woo me back morello. It's not going to work... well maybe I can try out the new jungle. They have been saying they want farming "carry" junglers for 3 seasons now. Pretty sure nothing will change with new jungle either. I'm not even sure why they think it's a good idea in the first place.
I was pretty content with S2 jungle. Felt I had a lot more combat stats when teamfights started breaking out and gank potential.
Or maybe I wasn't content and I just know what I'm missing out on now.
|
On August 07 2014 15:10 739 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 15:07 Eiii wrote:On August 07 2014 12:48 Slusher wrote:
wtb more stuff to spend ip on, 25k and counting on main account.. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cgJi2cM.png) get on my level Ah... sportsmanlike player in 2012 :D Santa Baron summoner icon, nice shit, I'm jelly.
i never was banned or warned and i didnt get that stupid icon, i am still salty about that.
|
Gahlo, 7 lizard jungler is not diversity (also when was this?). Its just one op item creating 1 fotm playstyle.
On August 08 2014 00:30 Alaric wrote:
They made the jungle camps stronger so they couldn't be killed without using the (slot-inefficient in a vacuum, but very cost-efficient to make up for the mandatory purchase) "jungle spirit" items, to circumvent the issue of the super farming mid laners stealing wraiths, and sometimes even wolves (hi Froggen) thus pauperising the junglers to a high degree.
Of course not that it stops Ziggs or Ahri or Orianna or Lulu from taking wraiths, they just take longer to do it.
The jungle items, of course, were a mistake from the beginning.
|
I think I may have been banned once in LoL but I still have the Santa icon
|
|
|
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Come Little Sister Licks Ears if you are watching LCS!
|
Did they make it so when loss prevented is up, the winning team gets fewer league points? Because I only got 8 lp against a team with a higher MMR by about 20, and that would usually give 16-20ish. And there were no connection issues on either side. :/
|
On August 08 2014 00:31 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 19:37 Numy wrote:On August 07 2014 18:24 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 It's too late. I'm a dota player now. Stop trying to woo me back morello. It's not going to work... well maybe I can try out the new jungle. They have been saying they want farming "carry" junglers for 3 seasons now. Pretty sure nothing will change with new jungle either. I'm not even sure why they think it's a good idea in the first place. I was pretty content with S2 jungle. Felt I had a lot more combat stats when teamfights started breaking out and gank potential. Or maybe I wasn't content and I just know what I'm missing out on now.
I think S2 had the most diverse jungle it's just at pro level it tended to become a secondary support with constant oracles where as in Solo Q it was perfectly fine. Had a lot of fun playing S2 honestly.
|
On August 08 2014 00:50 cLutZ wrote:
Gahlo, 7 lizard jungler is not diversity (also when was this?). Its just one op item creating 1 fotm playstyle.
Eve, Jarvan, Lee, Kha, Pantheon, Vi, Wukong, Elise(I know she never built it, but I always lumped her in with them.) Then when Flare came out, even after the nerfs it added Jax, Kayle(resurgence), Nocturne, Rengar(eventually), and Xin. There's probably another 5 or so that became strong, but not competitively so.
From there, Riot caved in to community whine because people get upset when junglers are allowed to carry. Then they half assed their attempt to make laner-fun approved junglers good again, yet failed to do any actual followup on it after it clearly wasn't enough.
You had bruiser duelists, you had assassins, you had "get to 6" champions, you had "farm up then be a force in team fights." Was the jungle bar set a little high? Yes, but instead of going somewhere in between where the near dozen competitive strength jungle crop and where tank junglers were at, the bar moved way the fuck down and tanks went nowhere except for Maokai into the top lane.
On August 08 2014 01:33 zer0das wrote:
Did they make it so when loss prevented is up, the winning team gets fewer league points? Because I only got 8 lp against a team with a higher MMR by about 20, and that would usually give 16-20ish. And there were no connection issues on either side. :/
It's always been like that. Loss prevention is turned on server wide when the network problems are large enough for Riot to not be able to ignore it, it's not a game by game mechanic.
|
On August 08 2014 01:16 JimmiC wrote:
I thought you got that for giving some one a mystery skin?
No, that was a different one. You got that for either not getting reported(or reported less than average), or getting someone to give you honor. One of the two riot wasn't really clear on it but they said it was for "sportsmanlike behavior"
edit: Skin gifting was reindeer urf, champion gifting was the turret, rp gifting was the blades
|
On August 08 2014 01:34 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 00:31 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 07 2014 19:37 Numy wrote:On August 07 2014 18:24 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 It's too late. I'm a dota player now. Stop trying to woo me back morello. It's not going to work... well maybe I can try out the new jungle. They have been saying they want farming "carry" junglers for 3 seasons now. Pretty sure nothing will change with new jungle either. I'm not even sure why they think it's a good idea in the first place. I was pretty content with S2 jungle. Felt I had a lot more combat stats when teamfights started breaking out and gank potential. Or maybe I wasn't content and I just know what I'm missing out on now. I think S2 had the most diverse jungle it's just at pro level it tended to become a secondary support with constant oracles where as in Solo Q it was perfectly fine. Had a lot of fun playing S2 honestly.
Looked it up: Skarner olaf, maokai, mundo shyv, lee, with a couple picks of other stuff. Dunno if diversity beats this season. Honestly if they really tried, I think 4.14 could add another handful of junglers back into competitive play, with just minor buffs and nerf reversions. Panth ult channel time down 0.5s, Wukong with Q shred partially reverted(maybe 15 or 20 to 30). Lastly for golem stone junglersto see play, I think golem stone still needs a bit of change, probably the reflect damage could be increased(same cap, it only comes into play for stuff with 4k+ hp). 1.66% per second honestly isn't very high, even if jungle monsters have no MR.
|
On August 08 2014 00:08 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 17:35 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 yeahno I somewhat disagree with Morello and the people talking about "bring back old jungle" are complete idiots who don't remember what old jungle was like. I think Morello's wrong in the sense that there was never "different ways to succeed" in the jungle. There was only ever one way, it just so happens that in the past, the ways to succeed were different than what they are now. Furthermore, jungling is definitely not a "chain-gank fest" nowadays. The "chain-gank fest" days were what? Season 2 with the nonstop tower dives? Season 1 jungle had probably the least jungle diversity since the jungle was so damn brutal. If you weren't a super sustain jungler you were fucked - if you translate that to modern play, it'd probably be even worse and junglers would be even more marginalized since teams are a lot more coordinated nowadays. Season 2 jungle had two metas so to speak. One where aoe junglers were insanely strong and one where junglers were pure supports. In the meta where aoe is king, variety is also low since if you don't have good aoe, you simply can't compete. Season 3 onwards had mostly jungles who have strong early game power or were support-y because farm is finite and teams realize that you simply can't have 4 farmed champions on the team so junglers get marginalized and only the support (ie naturally tanky with large amounts of base utility) or strong early game (Lee Sin, Elise, etc...) junglers get played. Imo, Riot is never going to be able to create a jungle where any option is viable and if they keep trying to, all they're gonna do is continuously rotate the pool of top tier "viable" junglers. Reverting the jungle and going backwards isn't going to help jungle champion variety, it'll just change the jungler pool to what it was in the past. I kind of disagree with you in this respect: S2 did have a much more diverse jungle. At Worlds alone I can recall Maokai and Shyvana in the same game, with Nocturne, Skarner, Lee, Shen, Cho, maybe even Mundo, Amumu, and Udyr. Now, this could be because of the lack of real optimizing by players, but it shows all sorts of junglers: Powerfarmers, Gankers, "Farm to 6" champs, single target and AOE based. The only real issue with S2's jungle was that the rewards were too low so ganking even on champs like Shyvana was typically better, and that lategame you were really far behind in gold. (Also some people didn't like midlaners taking wraiths). The gold problem has been fixed, the issue is that in giving the jungle more rewards they stupidly assumed that they should buff the difficulty of the jungle (particularly earlygame). The only way to have real jungle diversity is to basically make jungle camps into "capture the flag" type objectives like they were in S2. Not wasting all 5 pots to stay above 20% hp (with super dangerous Lee, Elise, etc sneaking around), is one of the main reasons pros don't pick anything but those types.
Those champions you listed were never all strong at the same time. They rotated in and out of the meta throughout Season 2. If you want to talk about champion pools over the entire season, Season 4 has a pretty large pool, too. We've seen Elise, Lee Sin, Eve, Kha, Rengar, Wukong, Pantheon, Nocturne, Skarner, Vi, and Nunu. I even recall a random Zed jungle game.
You really want to know why it seems like jungle diversity sucks? Well in the list of junglers of Season 4, almost every single one of them have received major reworks/nerfs during season 4. If they're serious about increasing pick diversity, Riot needs to get their heads out of their asses and realize their current approach to the game isn't working as far as pick diversity is concerned. Whether they start buffing to reach power parity or changing how pick/ban works, their current approach of only nerfing the fotm champions is not going to do shit about pick diversity.
|
On August 08 2014 04:43 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 00:08 cLutZ wrote:On August 07 2014 17:35 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 yeahno I somewhat disagree with Morello and the people talking about "bring back old jungle" are complete idiots who don't remember what old jungle was like. I think Morello's wrong in the sense that there was never "different ways to succeed" in the jungle. There was only ever one way, it just so happens that in the past, the ways to succeed were different than what they are now. Furthermore, jungling is definitely not a "chain-gank fest" nowadays. The "chain-gank fest" days were what? Season 2 with the nonstop tower dives? Season 1 jungle had probably the least jungle diversity since the jungle was so damn brutal. If you weren't a super sustain jungler you were fucked - if you translate that to modern play, it'd probably be even worse and junglers would be even more marginalized since teams are a lot more coordinated nowadays. Season 2 jungle had two metas so to speak. One where aoe junglers were insanely strong and one where junglers were pure supports. In the meta where aoe is king, variety is also low since if you don't have good aoe, you simply can't compete. Season 3 onwards had mostly jungles who have strong early game power or were support-y because farm is finite and teams realize that you simply can't have 4 farmed champions on the team so junglers get marginalized and only the support (ie naturally tanky with large amounts of base utility) or strong early game (Lee Sin, Elise, etc...) junglers get played. Imo, Riot is never going to be able to create a jungle where any option is viable and if they keep trying to, all they're gonna do is continuously rotate the pool of top tier "viable" junglers. Reverting the jungle and going backwards isn't going to help jungle champion variety, it'll just change the jungler pool to what it was in the past. I kind of disagree with you in this respect: S2 did have a much more diverse jungle. At Worlds alone I can recall Maokai and Shyvana in the same game, with Nocturne, Skarner, Lee, Shen, Cho, maybe even Mundo, Amumu, and Udyr. Now, this could be because of the lack of real optimizing by players, but it shows all sorts of junglers: Powerfarmers, Gankers, "Farm to 6" champs, single target and AOE based. The only real issue with S2's jungle was that the rewards were too low so ganking even on champs like Shyvana was typically better, and that lategame you were really far behind in gold. (Also some people didn't like midlaners taking wraiths). The gold problem has been fixed, the issue is that in giving the jungle more rewards they stupidly assumed that they should buff the difficulty of the jungle (particularly earlygame). The only way to have real jungle diversity is to basically make jungle camps into "capture the flag" type objectives like they were in S2. Not wasting all 5 pots to stay above 20% hp (with super dangerous Lee, Elise, etc sneaking around), is one of the main reasons pros don't pick anything but those types. Those champions you listed were never all strong at the same time. They rotated in and out of the meta throughout Season 2. If you want to talk about champion pools over the entire season, Season 4 has a pretty large pool, too. We've seen Elise, Lee Sin, Eve, Kha, Rengar, Wukong, Pantheon, Nocturne, Skarner, Vi, and Nunu. I even recall a random Zed jungle game. You really want to know why it seems like jungle diversity sucks? Well in the list of junglers of Season 4, almost every single one of them have received major reworks/nerfs during season 4. If they're serious about increasing pick diversity, Riot needs to get their heads out of their asses and realize their current approach to the game isn't working as far as pick diversity is concerned. Whether they start buffing to reach power parity or changing how pick/ban works, their current approach of only nerfing the fotm champions is not going to do shit about pick diversity.
Actually, the champions I listed were all played in the knockout stages of the same tournament, during the knockout stages, so your rebuttal is factually inaccurate.
Plus, you didn't address my point about jungle monsters killing jungle diversity, and your fix was just nebulous boilerplate "buff more, stop needing fotm" which gets recited ad nauseum but, because your plan doesn't actually address the real issues you would just create new problem champions like the several khazix changes did.
The issue is the jungle itself is punishing to all but one type of champion (strong single target, decently tanky early), that other types require being op(like sejuani for like 1 week post rework), or rely on an op item(flare), to be relevant, and those kinds of methods of being relevant are not durable. In other words, they will not stay balanced for long.
|
|
|
solo queue is almost never a problem when it comes to champion diversity.
|
On August 08 2014 05:16 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 04:43 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 08 2014 00:08 cLutZ wrote:On August 07 2014 17:35 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 yeahno I somewhat disagree with Morello and the people talking about "bring back old jungle" are complete idiots who don't remember what old jungle was like. I think Morello's wrong in the sense that there was never "different ways to succeed" in the jungle. There was only ever one way, it just so happens that in the past, the ways to succeed were different than what they are now. Furthermore, jungling is definitely not a "chain-gank fest" nowadays. The "chain-gank fest" days were what? Season 2 with the nonstop tower dives? Season 1 jungle had probably the least jungle diversity since the jungle was so damn brutal. If you weren't a super sustain jungler you were fucked - if you translate that to modern play, it'd probably be even worse and junglers would be even more marginalized since teams are a lot more coordinated nowadays. Season 2 jungle had two metas so to speak. One where aoe junglers were insanely strong and one where junglers were pure supports. In the meta where aoe is king, variety is also low since if you don't have good aoe, you simply can't compete. Season 3 onwards had mostly jungles who have strong early game power or were support-y because farm is finite and teams realize that you simply can't have 4 farmed champions on the team so junglers get marginalized and only the support (ie naturally tanky with large amounts of base utility) or strong early game (Lee Sin, Elise, etc...) junglers get played. Imo, Riot is never going to be able to create a jungle where any option is viable and if they keep trying to, all they're gonna do is continuously rotate the pool of top tier "viable" junglers. Reverting the jungle and going backwards isn't going to help jungle champion variety, it'll just change the jungler pool to what it was in the past. I kind of disagree with you in this respect: S2 did have a much more diverse jungle. At Worlds alone I can recall Maokai and Shyvana in the same game, with Nocturne, Skarner, Lee, Shen, Cho, maybe even Mundo, Amumu, and Udyr. Now, this could be because of the lack of real optimizing by players, but it shows all sorts of junglers: Powerfarmers, Gankers, "Farm to 6" champs, single target and AOE based. The only real issue with S2's jungle was that the rewards were too low so ganking even on champs like Shyvana was typically better, and that lategame you were really far behind in gold. (Also some people didn't like midlaners taking wraiths). The gold problem has been fixed, the issue is that in giving the jungle more rewards they stupidly assumed that they should buff the difficulty of the jungle (particularly earlygame). The only way to have real jungle diversity is to basically make jungle camps into "capture the flag" type objectives like they were in S2. Not wasting all 5 pots to stay above 20% hp (with super dangerous Lee, Elise, etc sneaking around), is one of the main reasons pros don't pick anything but those types. Those champions you listed were never all strong at the same time. They rotated in and out of the meta throughout Season 2. If you want to talk about champion pools over the entire season, Season 4 has a pretty large pool, too. We've seen Elise, Lee Sin, Eve, Kha, Rengar, Wukong, Pantheon, Nocturne, Skarner, Vi, and Nunu. I even recall a random Zed jungle game. You really want to know why it seems like jungle diversity sucks? Well in the list of junglers of Season 4, almost every single one of them have received major reworks/nerfs during season 4. If they're serious about increasing pick diversity, Riot needs to get their heads out of their asses and realize their current approach to the game isn't working as far as pick diversity is concerned. Whether they start buffing to reach power parity or changing how pick/ban works, their current approach of only nerfing the fotm champions is not going to do shit about pick diversity. Actually, the champions I listed were all played in the knockout stages of the same tournament, during the knockout stages, so your rebuttal is factually inaccurate. Plus, you didn't address my point about jungle monsters killing jungle diversity, and your fix was just nebulous boilerplate "buff more, stop needing fotm" which gets recited ad nauseum but, because your plan doesn't actually address the real issues you would just create new problem champions like the several khazix changes did. The issue is the jungle itself is punishing to all but one type of champion (strong single target, decently tanky early), that other types require being op(like sejuani for like 1 week post rework), or rely on an op item(flare), to be relevant, and those kinds of methods of being relevant are not durable. In other words, they will not stay balanced for long.
Buffing weak champions isn't the incorrect way to go about it because Kha'Zix became an issue. That's entirely Riot's fault for fucking up and giving an assassin one of the better defensive steroids in the game. Just as they buff incorrectly, they nerf incorrectly aswell. There is no reason why Kha'Zix sat with 50% DR while stealthed for an entire year, 3.8-4.9 while the nerfs that happened to him hit his damage 7 times. The only reason tank Kha'Zix became as big as it is is because Riot led it that way through shitty vision.
Sejuani was never OP. Hell, she even had trouble staying at a competitive level pre nerf because the meta had her sit infront of a tower like an idiot and take poke for the first 5 minutes of the game. All her CC durations were reduced in the rework, which were reduced again when they nerfed her. Her damage was never a problem, yet they just 40% of the scaling off her W. The Golem change was supposed to help her early game and all it did was make her better at what she was good at later and did nothing to help her where she needed it.
Flare was balanced after the first nerfs. There was no reason why it was nerfed a second time barely 2 weeks later. There's a reason why Rengar is the only champion in competitive play that builds it, and even then he sits on Madred's for a very extended portion of the game. Champions gaining strength because they finally have proper itemization shouldn't make them labeled as "problems" and have the item gutted 1 month after it came out. Malphite and Nunu were just starting to catch on in soloq when they killed Flare and when it happened they dropped off because they no longer had a place anymore.
Riot has time and again been more knee jerk on jungle than any other position in the game. They have 0 fucking clue what they actually want, how to go about it, and when they do finally get something done they decide they don't want that anymore. In short, Riot "balances" the jungle like a teenage girl.
|
Well they're already nerfing Maokai despite counterpicks starting to get figured out. Meanwhile Alistar will have at least one patch of peace because he became popular too late for nerfs to make it to live in comparison. Riot should really have a policy of letting at least one patch go by when a champion barely starts getting used again to let player figure it out at least a bit before they touch it.
|
On August 08 2014 06:58 Alaric wrote:
Well they're already nerfing Maokai despite counterpicks starting to get figured out. Meanwhile Alistar will have at least one patch of peace because he became popular too late for nerfs to make it to live in comparison. Riot should really have a policy of letting at least one patch go by when a champion barely starts getting used again to let player figure it out at least a bit before they touch it.
Think it's too late for them to do that since community is so used to things getting nerfed quickly. Unless your name is lee obviously.
|
On August 08 2014 06:48 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 05:16 cLutZ wrote:On August 08 2014 04:43 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 08 2014 00:08 cLutZ wrote:On August 07 2014 17:35 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 yeahno I somewhat disagree with Morello and the people talking about "bring back old jungle" are complete idiots who don't remember what old jungle was like. I think Morello's wrong in the sense that there was never "different ways to succeed" in the jungle. There was only ever one way, it just so happens that in the past, the ways to succeed were different than what they are now. Furthermore, jungling is definitely not a "chain-gank fest" nowadays. The "chain-gank fest" days were what? Season 2 with the nonstop tower dives? Season 1 jungle had probably the least jungle diversity since the jungle was so damn brutal. If you weren't a super sustain jungler you were fucked - if you translate that to modern play, it'd probably be even worse and junglers would be even more marginalized since teams are a lot more coordinated nowadays. Season 2 jungle had two metas so to speak. One where aoe junglers were insanely strong and one where junglers were pure supports. In the meta where aoe is king, variety is also low since if you don't have good aoe, you simply can't compete. Season 3 onwards had mostly jungles who have strong early game power or were support-y because farm is finite and teams realize that you simply can't have 4 farmed champions on the team so junglers get marginalized and only the support (ie naturally tanky with large amounts of base utility) or strong early game (Lee Sin, Elise, etc...) junglers get played. Imo, Riot is never going to be able to create a jungle where any option is viable and if they keep trying to, all they're gonna do is continuously rotate the pool of top tier "viable" junglers. Reverting the jungle and going backwards isn't going to help jungle champion variety, it'll just change the jungler pool to what it was in the past. I kind of disagree with you in this respect: S2 did have a much more diverse jungle. At Worlds alone I can recall Maokai and Shyvana in the same game, with Nocturne, Skarner, Lee, Shen, Cho, maybe even Mundo, Amumu, and Udyr. Now, this could be because of the lack of real optimizing by players, but it shows all sorts of junglers: Powerfarmers, Gankers, "Farm to 6" champs, single target and AOE based. The only real issue with S2's jungle was that the rewards were too low so ganking even on champs like Shyvana was typically better, and that lategame you were really far behind in gold. (Also some people didn't like midlaners taking wraiths). The gold problem has been fixed, the issue is that in giving the jungle more rewards they stupidly assumed that they should buff the difficulty of the jungle (particularly earlygame). The only way to have real jungle diversity is to basically make jungle camps into "capture the flag" type objectives like they were in S2. Not wasting all 5 pots to stay above 20% hp (with super dangerous Lee, Elise, etc sneaking around), is one of the main reasons pros don't pick anything but those types. Those champions you listed were never all strong at the same time. They rotated in and out of the meta throughout Season 2. If you want to talk about champion pools over the entire season, Season 4 has a pretty large pool, too. We've seen Elise, Lee Sin, Eve, Kha, Rengar, Wukong, Pantheon, Nocturne, Skarner, Vi, and Nunu. I even recall a random Zed jungle game. You really want to know why it seems like jungle diversity sucks? Well in the list of junglers of Season 4, almost every single one of them have received major reworks/nerfs during season 4. If they're serious about increasing pick diversity, Riot needs to get their heads out of their asses and realize their current approach to the game isn't working as far as pick diversity is concerned. Whether they start buffing to reach power parity or changing how pick/ban works, their current approach of only nerfing the fotm champions is not going to do shit about pick diversity. Actually, the champions I listed were all played in the knockout stages of the same tournament, during the knockout stages, so your rebuttal is factually inaccurate. Plus, you didn't address my point about jungle monsters killing jungle diversity, and your fix was just nebulous boilerplate "buff more, stop needing fotm" which gets recited ad nauseum but, because your plan doesn't actually address the real issues you would just create new problem champions like the several khazix changes did. The issue is the jungle itself is punishing to all but one type of champion (strong single target, decently tanky early), that other types require being op(like sejuani for like 1 week post rework), or rely on an op item(flare), to be relevant, and those kinds of methods of being relevant are not durable. In other words, they will not stay balanced for long. Buffing weak champions isn't the incorrect way to go about it because Kha'Zix became an issue. That's entirely Riot's fault for fucking up and giving an assassin one of the better defensive steroids in the game. Just as they buff incorrectly, they nerf incorrectly aswell. There is no reason why Kha'Zix sat with 50% DR while stealthed for an entire year, 3.8-4.9 while the nerfs that happened to him hit his damage 7 times. The only reason tank Kha'Zix became as big as it is is because Riot led it that way through shitty vision. Sejuani was never OP. Hell, she even had trouble staying at a competitive level pre nerf because the meta had her sit infront of a tower like an idiot and take poke for the first 5 minutes of the game. All her CC durations were reduced in the rework, which were reduced again when they nerfed her. Her damage was never a problem, yet they just 40% of the scaling off her W. The Golem change was supposed to help her early game and all it did was make her better at what she was good at later and did nothing to help her where she needed it. Flare was balanced after the first nerfs. There was no reason why it was nerfed a second time barely 2 weeks later. There's a reason why Rengar is the only champion in competitive play that builds it, and even then he sits on Madred's for a very extended portion of the game. Champions gaining strength because they finally have proper itemization shouldn't make them labeled as "problems" and have the item gutted 1 month after it came out. Malphite and Nunu were just starting to catch on in soloq when they killed Flare and when it happened they dropped off because they no longer had a place anymore. Riot has time and again been more knee jerk on jungle than any other position in the game. They have 0 fucking clue what they actually want, how to go about it, and when they do finally get something done they decide they don't want that anymore. In short, Riot "balances" the jungle like a teenage girl.
So your opinion is what exactly? That the jungle is well designed and Riot can't even stumble into a champion that isn't highly similar to Lee/Elise that is strong for more than 1 or 2 patches? I mean, that opinion is, essentially, that they are intentionally getting "it" wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
