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+ Show Spoiler +On August 07 2014 17:35 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 yeahno I somewhat disagree with Morello and the people talking about "bring back old jungle" are complete idiots who don't remember what old jungle was like. Season 1 jungle had probably the least jungle diversity since the jungle was so damn brutal. If you weren't a super sustain jungler you were fucked - if you translate that to modern play, it'd probably be even worse and junglers would be even more marginalized since teams are a lot more coordinated nowadays. Season 2 jungle had two metas so to speak. One where aoe junglers were insanely strong and one where junglers were pure supports. In the meta where aoe is king, variety is also low since if you don't have good aoe, you simply can't compete. Season 3 onwards had mostly jungles who have strong early game power or were support-y because farm is finite and teams realize that you simply can't have 4 farmed champions on the team so junglers get marginalized and only the support (ie naturally tanky with large amounts of base utility) or strong early game (Lee Sin, Elise, etc...) junglers get played. Imo, Riot is never going to be able to create a jungle where any option is viable and if they keep trying to, all they're gonna do is continuously rotate the pool of top tier "viable" junglers. Reverting the jungle and going backwards isn't going to help jungle champion variety, it'll just change the jungler pool to what it was in the past.
S1 you couldn't even jungle until fairly high up the mastery/rune tree without being on either WW or nunu. Also if you weren't an experienced jungler, you'd fall behind and take ages to ever reach a point where you could do something. Not a fan of that. I do like making the jungle harder aspect, but you'd need to find a way to do it without crowding out junglers who simply can't clear any more.
S2. Gp10+tanky support 2, with oracles. Weakest iteration of the jungle, could clear with almost anything, so you just went double Gp10 and camped lanes, because you would get enough money to be relatively tanky anyways. Killing jungle creeps was non-essential. Pretty much nothing useful to learn here, other than if you make it so jungling is optional, snowballing lanes will win you games far more than simply farming.
S3-4. decent. Probably the most dueling heavy era of jungling, partially due to improvements on meta. Currently 2 competitive "farming" junglers in rengar and nocturne, and the rest are strong duelists/fast junglers. While it is possible to shift power into machete to further differentiate laners from the jungler, While it is possible to simply make the jungle so difficult(like S1), that you'd clear a camp, base, and that was a good run, I don't think that's necessary or healthy for the game. Conservation/bonus gold is a mechanic I'm mixed on. I don't think it does enough for you while behind, and it plateaus after a certain point because you can't gain gold any faster if you're ahead.
IMO S4 with junglers not having to base very often just from clearing camps after they pick up some items is better. But you can tweak where that line is by adjusting monster stats and jungle item stats. I honestly think the tank line of spirit stone should just make it so you take very minimal damage in jungle(maybe -10-15 flat?), because where they get counterjungled the most is when they are at low HP from killing creeps against a duelist with strong burst damage, who might be low themselves.
That leaves the farm jungler problem remaining. How do you make farming a viable playstyle, without making it so you can ignore lanes for 20 minutes before going out to 1v2/3? Noct and rengar have the potential to snowball and hard carry games if you can make the first couple of ganks count, but there isn't enough gold in the jungle for them to scale without it.
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On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. Show nested quote +. In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361
What a shitter.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I tested it pre 4.13, flat AD had pretty significantly faster first clear (several seconds)+less lost hp, pretty significant because you weren't full hp at the end of a clear either way. Still the case right now (just tested), the first clear with flat AD quints is about 4 seconds faster, whether it scales better later into the game is arguable, but it's probably better in early fights because you get more autoattacks off, and that's the only other thing besides clear that matters.
used these masteries
+ Show Spoiler +
tested flat AD reds, flat armor yellows, flat AP blues, flat AP quints vs.
tested flat AD reds, flat armor yellows, flat AP blues, flat AD quints
I can make a recording of the runs if you request but it's a bit bothersome
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On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. Show nested quote +. In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361
It's too late. I'm a dota player now. Stop trying to woo me back morello. It's not going to work...
well maybe I can try out the new jungle.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
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On August 07 2014 18:05 Scip wrote:I tested it pre 4.13, flat AD had pretty significantly faster first clear (several seconds)+less lost hp, pretty significant because you weren't full hp at the end of a clear either way. Still the case right now (just tested), the first clear with flat AD quints is about 4 seconds faster, whether it scales better later into the game is arguable, but it's probably better in early fights because you get more autoattacks off, and that's the only other thing besides clear that matters. used these masteries + Show Spoiler +tested flat AD reds, flat armor yellows, flat AP blues, flat AP quints vs. tested flat AD reds, flat armor yellows, flat AP blues, flat AD quints I can make a recording of the runs if you request but it's a bit bothersome
If it's 4 seconds faster now it must have been less before, since the AP ratio on Q got nerfed while the AD ratio stayed the same. I just tested with those same runes and the same masteries (except 1 point in spell weaving instead of CDR, arcane blade instead of dangerous game and block instead of enchanted armour) and the speeds were basically the same going red > wolves > blue.
I think AD quints could be be slightly better for the early ganks/skirmishes, but I don't think it makes any difference for the clear speeds.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
It doesn't matter that much. but why'd you test Red->Wolves->Blue when you pretty much never go that route (Red->Wraiths->Blue would be the more standard one). By first clear I meant full clear to lvl4, sorry if that wasn't clear (the most standard of paths, Blue-Wolves-Red-Golems-Wraiths-Wolves-Wight). But yes, it does make difference for clear speeds, upload a video of your own clear or at the very least request I upload a video rather than asserting something false.
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On August 07 2014 18:45 Fusilero wrote:http://www.twitch.tv/nicegametvJin Air's trace is running top ali vs najin shield (save on shyv) And dring start shyv
That top cow holy shit.
It actually makes a lot of sense as a pro pick.
1. 2v1 and 3v1 dives are dangerous at best if ali is level 1, and deadly if ali is level 2.
2. All trace looks to be doing as far as 1v1 laning is rush sheen and abuse the headbutt auto combo for one sided trading. Saves Q for disengage.
3. One of the few picks that can survive fed XXXX so long as his ultimate is active beforehand.
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Ali's solo laning has always been really fun. surprised it's taken this long.
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On August 07 2014 18:56 Scip wrote:
It doesn't matter that much. but why'd you test Red->Wolves->Blue when you pretty much never go that route (Red->Wraiths->Blue would be the more standard one). By first clear I meant full clear to lvl4, sorry if that wasn't clear (the most standard of paths, Blue-Wolves-Red-Golems-Wraiths-Wolves-Wight). But yes, it does make difference for clear speeds, upload a video of your own clear or at the very least request I upload a video rather than asserting something false.
I hit level 3 at 2:54 with AP quints going red > blue > wolves. My concern is generally hitting level 3 and getting out to gank as quickly as possible, so I don't really care about the level 4 clear speed. Also, unless you micro and position perfectly every single time, speeds are always going to vary, so if you just do each clear once and it's a 4 second difference, that doesn't necessarily mean it's just 4 seconds faster. You could very easily do it again and have it be 4 seconds faster the other way.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I do position perfectly. I made sure of that during the test.
+ account for when buff spawns (during one test I had my first buff spawn at 1:58 ?!?!?)
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On August 07 2014 18:24 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 It's too late. I'm a dota player now. Stop trying to woo me back morello. It's not going to work... well maybe I can try out the new jungle.
They have been saying they want farming "carry" junglers for 3 seasons now. Pretty sure nothing will change with new jungle either. I'm not even sure why they think it's a good idea in the first place.
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What build is trace going on ali? What skillorder?
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The s4 jungle is by far the best one even if it isn't perfect it still is going in the right direction.
All it took for alistar to get popular>get a huge buff.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I can do Red-Wolves-Blue in 2:48 with AD quints zzz, you're probably doing something really wrong in your tests, 6s disparity is too big for only 3 camps.
Buff spawned at 1:54 as usual
yeah, there is pretty much 0 difference between AP and AD during the first 3 camps. AD gets an advantage on small golems and wight camp it looks like. AD's probably better for early skirmishes too if that's your thing.
flat AP gives you: 15dmg on E, 6dmg on Q (assuming lvl2 Q)
flat AD gives you: 6.8dmg on E, 3.74dmg on Q (assuming lvl2 Q) and 6.8dmg on autoattack. So estimating that if you get about 3 autoattacks without disproportionate amount of Qs then flat AD is better, which should be most of the time. That+faster clear if you don't want to just lvl3 gank makes it better.
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On August 07 2014 20:01 Scip wrote:
I can do Red-Wolves-Blue in 2:48 with AD quints zzz, you're probably doing something really wrong in your tests, 6s disparity is too big for only 3 camps.
Buff spawned at 1:54 as usual
yeah, there is pretty much 0 difference between AP and AD during the first 3 camps. AD gets an advantage on small golems and wight camp it looks like. AD's probably better for early skirmishes too if that's your thing.
flat AP gives you: 15dmg on E, 6dmg on Q (assuming lvl2 Q)
flat AD gives you: 6.8dmg on E, 3.74dmg on Q (assuming lvl2 Q) and 6.8dmg on autoattack. So estimating that if you get about 3 autoattacks without disproportionate amount of Qs then flat AD is better, which should be most of the time. That+faster clear if you don't want to just lvl3 gank makes it better.
I probably mispositioned a bit, but I don't know if that'd make up for a 6 second disparity. That's strange. Video? I'll try to play some games tomorrow with AD quints and see how it feels. I want to try experimenting with some triforce builds as well.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/scipaeus/b/555487583 skip to 3:10
I was explaining some stuff but music too loud, w/e not important
going by feel is the wrong approach for runes/masteries and sometimes items, the differences are often too small to notice, math is better. I did it in 2:49 in the video, w/e you can clearly see I can squeeze an extra second out on wolves.
Also autoattacked red 1 too many times, coulda just went off and finish it with 2 Qs, I could maybe get it down to 2:47 is I tried a few times.
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On August 07 2014 17:35 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 yeahno I somewhat disagree with Morello and the people talking about "bring back old jungle" are complete idiots who don't remember what old jungle was like. I think Morello's wrong in the sense that there was never "different ways to succeed" in the jungle. There was only ever one way, it just so happens that in the past, the ways to succeed were different than what they are now. Furthermore, jungling is definitely not a "chain-gank fest" nowadays. The "chain-gank fest" days were what? Season 2 with the nonstop tower dives? Season 1 jungle had probably the least jungle diversity since the jungle was so damn brutal. If you weren't a super sustain jungler you were fucked - if you translate that to modern play, it'd probably be even worse and junglers would be even more marginalized since teams are a lot more coordinated nowadays. Season 2 jungle had two metas so to speak. One where aoe junglers were insanely strong and one where junglers were pure supports. In the meta where aoe is king, variety is also low since if you don't have good aoe, you simply can't compete. Season 3 onwards had mostly jungles who have strong early game power or were support-y because farm is finite and teams realize that you simply can't have 4 farmed champions on the team so junglers get marginalized and only the support (ie naturally tanky with large amounts of base utility) or strong early game (Lee Sin, Elise, etc...) junglers get played. Imo, Riot is never going to be able to create a jungle where any option is viable and if they keep trying to, all they're gonna do is continuously rotate the pool of top tier "viable" junglers. Reverting the jungle and going backwards isn't going to help jungle champion variety, it'll just change the jungler pool to what it was in the past.
I kind of disagree with you in this respect: S2 did have a much more diverse jungle. At Worlds alone I can recall Maokai and Shyvana in the same game, with Nocturne, Skarner, Lee, Shen, Cho, maybe even Mundo, Amumu, and Udyr.
Now, this could be because of the lack of real optimizing by players, but it shows all sorts of junglers: Powerfarmers, Gankers, "Farm to 6" champs, single target and AOE based. The only real issue with S2's jungle was that the rewards were too low so ganking even on champs like Shyvana was typically better, and that lategame you were really far behind in gold. (Also some people didn't like midlaners taking wraiths).
The gold problem has been fixed, the issue is that in giving the jungle more rewards they stupidly assumed that they should buff the difficulty of the jungle (particularly earlygame). The only way to have real jungle diversity is to basically make jungle camps into "capture the flag" type objectives like they were in S2. Not wasting all 5 pots to stay above 20% hp (with super dangerous Lee, Elise, etc sneaking around), is one of the main reasons pros don't pick anything but those types.
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On August 08 2014 00:08 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 17:35 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 07 2014 17:22 JazzVortical wrote:In other jungle news, Morello says recent jungle direction has been completely wrong. . In fact, I think our jungle direction has been completely backwards over the last few seasons. That's our bad and I think the results are clear.
To that, returning different ways to succeed at the jungle is key to restoring choice, and making it not a chain-gank fest in lanes. I'll give more details on this in the coming months, but directionally we're totally in agreement. Thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4759361 yeahno I somewhat disagree with Morello and the people talking about "bring back old jungle" are complete idiots who don't remember what old jungle was like. I think Morello's wrong in the sense that there was never "different ways to succeed" in the jungle. There was only ever one way, it just so happens that in the past, the ways to succeed were different than what they are now. Furthermore, jungling is definitely not a "chain-gank fest" nowadays. The "chain-gank fest" days were what? Season 2 with the nonstop tower dives? Season 1 jungle had probably the least jungle diversity since the jungle was so damn brutal. If you weren't a super sustain jungler you were fucked - if you translate that to modern play, it'd probably be even worse and junglers would be even more marginalized since teams are a lot more coordinated nowadays. Season 2 jungle had two metas so to speak. One where aoe junglers were insanely strong and one where junglers were pure supports. In the meta where aoe is king, variety is also low since if you don't have good aoe, you simply can't compete. Season 3 onwards had mostly jungles who have strong early game power or were support-y because farm is finite and teams realize that you simply can't have 4 farmed champions on the team so junglers get marginalized and only the support (ie naturally tanky with large amounts of base utility) or strong early game (Lee Sin, Elise, etc...) junglers get played. Imo, Riot is never going to be able to create a jungle where any option is viable and if they keep trying to, all they're gonna do is continuously rotate the pool of top tier "viable" junglers. Reverting the jungle and going backwards isn't going to help jungle champion variety, it'll just change the jungler pool to what it was in the past. I kind of disagree with you in this respect: S2 did have a much more diverse jungle. At Worlds alone I can recall Maokai and Shyvana in the same game, with Nocturne, Skarner, Lee, Shen, Cho, maybe even Mundo, Amumu, and Udyr. Now, this could be because of the lack of real optimizing by players, but it shows all sorts of junglers: Powerfarmers, Gankers, "Farm to 6" champs, single target and AOE based. The only real issue with S2's jungle was that the rewards were too low so ganking even on champs like Shyvana was typically better, and that lategame you were really far behind in gold. (Also some people didn't like midlaners taking wraiths). The gold problem has been fixed, the issue is that in giving the jungle more rewards they stupidly assumed that they should buff the difficulty of the jungle (particularly earlygame). The only way to have real jungle diversity is to basically make jungle camps into "capture the flag" type objectives like they were in S2. Not wasting all 5 pots to stay above 20% hp (with super dangerous Lee, Elise, etc sneaking around), is one of the main reasons pros don't pick anything but those types.
To be fair, I feel that S4 jungle came really close to where it needed to be. There was that one point where 7 Lizard junglers were strong, then after Flare got it's initial nerf there was at least 3-4 champions from there that worked really well. Because of that Nunu had enhanced time in the limelight as he provided something other than safe smiting and hypercarry support. If we toss Rengar on top of that because people learned to play him and if Riot was more aggressive in their tank band-aid, it could have been really diverse.
But alas they went on the nerf fest on the champions and mucked around with other systems in the jungle(I want to say they took out gold too?)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vnm2hhQ.jpg?1)
