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On July 27 2014 14:01 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 13:46 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 27 2014 13:19 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 27 2014 12:36 JazzVortical wrote:
Out of interest/discussion sake, what would Faker have to accomplish to be considered Flash level? Single handedly winning OGN and World champs for the next few years carrying his team every game?
The games are too different, as well as the avenues for success. All you can really say is that they are both incredible players in their field. It's slightly presumptuous anyway, Faker hasn't stood the test of (enough) time yet. honestly I'll be absolutely blown away if anyone can ever mimic Flash's dominance in their game of choice, not even just talking about LoL. Jaedong was really good around Flash's entire Bonjwa career too. I wouldn't call it dominance just because Jaedong was close. But the huge skill difference between pros is definitely visible in BW and it's hard to see in LoL, because LoL is a team game, that Faker is so much better than many NA players. As were Stork and Bisu, and then later on there was Jangbi and a few others who were catching fire. If we want to look at how statistically unlikely that there was a player (of anything) that was dominant as Flash considering his competition, I think the only comparisons would be like Pele and Michael Jordan.
To give another reference: Sir Donald Bradman. Completely and utterly dominated international cricket in his time, still considered the best there has ever been.
Faker might be incredible now, but he needs to stay that way, with his crown unchallenged, for a while yet.
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On July 27 2014 13:46 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 13:19 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 27 2014 12:36 JazzVortical wrote:
Out of interest/discussion sake, what would Faker have to accomplish to be considered Flash level? Single handedly winning OGN and World champs for the next few years carrying his team every game?
The games are too different, as well as the avenues for success. All you can really say is that they are both incredible players in their field. It's slightly presumptuous anyway, Faker hasn't stood the test of (enough) time yet. honestly I'll be absolutely blown away if anyone can ever mimic Flash's dominance in their game of choice, not even just talking about LoL. Jaedong was really good around Flash's entire Bonjwa career too. I wouldn't call it dominance just because Jaedong was close. But the huge skill difference between pros is definitely visible in BW and it's hard to see in LoL, because LoL is a team game, that Faker is so much better than many NA players.
maybe, but Flash was good to the point that he practically caused Jaedong's slump after the what? second or third title contention between the two.
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man all this bw talk makes me want to play it
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On July 27 2014 09:58 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 09:43 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 27 2014 09:33 cLutZ wrote:
Double ad also has late game issues due to no cc. When ez mid was popular, you basically had to get early towers or it was curtains. if you are running an AD mid could go back to pre season 1 days and run a Mage with a support. I don't think mage+support was ever a thing. It was usually AP top, AD mid, jungle, and bot was whatever the fuck your team wanted to run, which was usually two bruisers or bruiser+support.
annie/fizz bot lane ftw
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On July 27 2014 14:25 kongoline wrote:
man all this bw talk makes me want to play it
Sounds to me like TLLOLOTGDT needs to make a BW night were somebody digs up vogs from a final and syncs em up.
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On July 27 2014 06:47 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 06:16 Sufficiency wrote:On July 27 2014 04:53 TheYango wrote:Somewhat late, but: On July 26 2014 16:46 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2014 15:33 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 26 2014 15:20 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2014 15:08 Gahlo wrote:On July 26 2014 14:49 Sufficiency wrote:
Well, this is kind of broken. Challenger players now has a 58% chance to play on purple side because Riot's new matchmaking algorithm places better players on the purple side to compensate for the blue side advantage. If they want blue, they should just suck more. I plan to run a test to see what happens to the top (say) 10 soloQ ladder players. Maybe they play on purple 80% of the time or something. Pretty sure Riot's algorithm is bugged. I plan to blog this tomorrow. Purple has always had the higher ELO. they probably just intensified that advantage to try to guarantee a better winrate. if thats what they did, thats a shoddy and somewhat deceptive way of "fixing" blue side advantage. I doubt it. People always say that, but until these two months I have not seen anyone quoting any Rioter saying purple side has higher Elo. https://www.facebook.com/notes/leaguecraft/purple-does-have-a-very-slight-disadvantage/267255379959489?comment_id=4758514Zileas confirms the purple side matchmaking advantage back in 2011. Obviously that's old, but: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3344919Acknowledged as still being in place by a QA Analyst about a year ago. The Zileas quote has been the go-to source for proof of the purple side matchmaking advantage for a long time, so I'm not sure how you never encountered it before. Fair, but what they did back in June was not a 10 elo difference. It was huge. The scale of change last month was many times bigger than whatever Zilean was saying in 2011. Show nested quote +We treat the effect flat around that level. It's smaller at low elos, larger at highish elo, and highly variable at very high elo (as in, we can't seem to figure out what the effect is there).
On July 27 2014 09:15 Sufficiency wrote:
I do have to say though. A few months ago Ashe had like 51-52% win rate. Not 100% sure she is back to 50%.
Yo you were called out twice in a row correctly by PX. Can you admit you were wrong or something instead of jumping onto a different shitpost bandwagon?
Otherwise what's the point of correcting people if whenever someone gets called out for being wrong or misguided or a fucking dumbass you just go into maximum denial mode and keep posting about something else plugging your ears and pretending nothing went wrong.
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Anyone know the go to skill order/evolve order on jungle kha these days?
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On July 27 2014 21:01 killerdog wrote:
Anyone know the go to skill order/evolve order on jungle kha these days?
I think I heard Q first is the way to go, because otherwise you don't do enough damage.
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Can't you just evolve E first still if your laners have strong killing potential, for dives and stuff, and then Q second, depending on the state of the game?
Also I'm not sure what to think when I deal almost as much damage as the second on our team as Nautilus in a 40 minutes game. ._. Being ignored while the rest explodes early helps I guess, the AoE from a full physical comp won't break the shield easily.
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On July 27 2014 17:27 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 06:47 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 27 2014 06:16 Sufficiency wrote:On July 27 2014 04:53 TheYango wrote:Somewhat late, but: On July 26 2014 16:46 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2014 15:33 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 26 2014 15:20 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2014 15:08 Gahlo wrote:On July 26 2014 14:49 Sufficiency wrote:
Well, this is kind of broken. Challenger players now has a 58% chance to play on purple side because Riot's new matchmaking algorithm places better players on the purple side to compensate for the blue side advantage. If they want blue, they should just suck more. I plan to run a test to see what happens to the top (say) 10 soloQ ladder players. Maybe they play on purple 80% of the time or something. Pretty sure Riot's algorithm is bugged. I plan to blog this tomorrow. Purple has always had the higher ELO. they probably just intensified that advantage to try to guarantee a better winrate. if thats what they did, thats a shoddy and somewhat deceptive way of "fixing" blue side advantage. I doubt it. People always say that, but until these two months I have not seen anyone quoting any Rioter saying purple side has higher Elo. https://www.facebook.com/notes/leaguecraft/purple-does-have-a-very-slight-disadvantage/267255379959489?comment_id=4758514Zileas confirms the purple side matchmaking advantage back in 2011. Obviously that's old, but: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3344919Acknowledged as still being in place by a QA Analyst about a year ago. The Zileas quote has been the go-to source for proof of the purple side matchmaking advantage for a long time, so I'm not sure how you never encountered it before. Fair, but what they did back in June was not a 10 elo difference. It was huge. The scale of change last month was many times bigger than whatever Zilean was saying in 2011. We treat the effect flat around that level. It's smaller at low elos, larger at highish elo, and highly variable at very high elo (as in, we can't seem to figure out what the effect is there). Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 09:15 Sufficiency wrote:
I do have to say though. A few months ago Ashe had like 51-52% win rate. Not 100% sure she is back to 50%. Yo you were called out twice in a row correctly by PX. Can you admit you were wrong or something instead of jumping onto a different shitpost bandwagon? Otherwise what's the point of correcting people if whenever someone gets called out for being wrong or misguided or a fucking dumbass you just go into maximum denial mode and keep posting about something else plugging your ears and pretending nothing went wrong.
I don't see what I need to say to him.
I see that after June 4th 2014, blue side wins 3% less and challenger players play on purple 8% morr often. I see a logical connection .
Whatever zileas said in 2011 really does not matter. That was way in the past. The fact of the matter is that something changed last month that:
1. Blue side wins less
2. Challenger players play on purple 58% instead of 50%
I am more than happy to address his concern if he believes these are independent event. But if he just makes snide remarks I will ignore him.
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:/ i was just correcting you since you seemed to not be aware of what happened/
something could have changed last month in their algorithm without it being some new thing you discovered.
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On July 28 2014 00:30 PrinceXizor wrote:
:/ i was just correcting you since you seemed to not be aware of what happened/
something could have changed last month in their algorithm without it being some new thing you discovered.
Sure, but at the end top ranking players do play 60-70% of the time on purple instead of blue, so it's possible that:
1. They are not using anything new, they just cranked up the magnitude of the fix from 2011. Now the MMR difference is so big that it forces top ranking players to play on the purple side more often
2. They changed the way the MMR adjustment is done (as opposed to the old Elo adjustment) and, as a side effect, made top ranking players play on purple more often.
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I can't believe you guys are still talking about this. Clearly it's due to a lack of players being above them to be put on the purple team.
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On July 28 2014 01:14 Gahlo wrote:
I can't believe you guys are still talking about this. Clearly it's due to a lack of players being above them to be put on the purple team.
Simple solution to the argument. If the win rate for diamond and below has shifted to be significantly closer to 50% then riot fiddled with the MMR handicap of blue side. If diamond/plat etc still have a 55% win rate then people at the very top are just getting unlucky because their MMR is so high.
I find it hard to believe that the top 10 players would cause the overall blue side advantage to drop by 4 points just because they played on purple more often.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 27 2014 14:18 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 13:46 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 27 2014 13:19 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 27 2014 12:36 JazzVortical wrote:
Out of interest/discussion sake, what would Faker have to accomplish to be considered Flash level? Single handedly winning OGN and World champs for the next few years carrying his team every game?
The games are too different, as well as the avenues for success. All you can really say is that they are both incredible players in their field. It's slightly presumptuous anyway, Faker hasn't stood the test of (enough) time yet. honestly I'll be absolutely blown away if anyone can ever mimic Flash's dominance in their game of choice, not even just talking about LoL. Jaedong was really good around Flash's entire Bonjwa career too. I wouldn't call it dominance just because Jaedong was close. But the huge skill difference between pros is definitely visible in BW and it's hard to see in LoL, because LoL is a team game, that Faker is so much better than many NA players. maybe, but Flash was good to the point that he practically caused Jaedong's slump after the what? second or third title contention between the two.
Also remember that Flash's dominance came in at a point where the skill level of the game had in large part stabilized, indicating that most of the competition was already approaching the limit of their capability. During Flash's career, much of the player pool at the top level remained relatively stable, as the number of new players that could approach that level of talent was fairly small. What made Flash stand out was that he stood out above his competition when his competition ALREADY could be said to be nearing the limits of human ability.
Korean LoL isn't at that level yet. The game is growing, and there are a ton of talented new players entering the scene. We're not at the point where we can confidently say that any player right now is among the best there will ever be, because we don't know how much better people can get at the game. So any dominance right now is likely to be historically significant in the context of the game (like how the Bonjwas were in their time), but not necessarily in contention for GOAT.
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^ Keep in mind the state of SCBW in general. The game was on the decline, I'd imagine that newer players weren't coming along simply because they weren't putting as much effort into it because it wasn't such a promising progaming opportunity anymore. SC2, LoL and such took most of the potential next godlike players so we were left with the ones who already were excellent.
About sides, the simplest fix to me seems to be just making the mmr more skewed towards purple.
for example, if normally 1. 3. 5. 7. 9. in mmr are purple and 2. 4. 6. 8. 10. in mmr are blue, they could have 1. 2. 4. 6. 7. be purple and 3. 5. 8. 9. 10. be blue if that would help them get closer to 50% winrate.
Then again this is going to cause problems at the highest levels so perhaps should be limited to plat and lower.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 28 2014 01:47 Shikyo wrote:
^ Keep in mind the state of SCBW in general. The game was on the decline, I'd imagine that newer players weren't coming along simply because they weren't putting as much effort into it because it wasn't such a promising progaming opportunity anymore. SC2, LoL and such took most of the potential next godlike players so we were left with the ones who already were excellent.
The player pool was already in the situation I mentioned before SC2 replaced BW in any capacity (remember how lukewarm the response to SC2 was even at the casual level at WoL's release) and LoL wasn't even in Korea yet.
Regardless, Flash's place in BW history is not simply as an incredibly dominant player who stood above his incredibly skilled peers. Regarding him just as that is a disservice to his level of play. Flash's position in BW history is as arguably the greatest BW player of all time--achieving dominance in a time when people thought dominance was no longer possible. LoL simply isn't old enough yet for me to be convinced that any current player is in contention for that title yet.
If we are to believe that League will have the competitive longevity that BW had, we likewise have to believe that 5 years from now, we will have many players that are astronomically better than even the current best players, just as there were many BW players in 2010 that were astronomically better than every one of the bonjwa that came before them.
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On July 28 2014 01:53 TheYango wrote:
If we are to believe that League will have the competitive longevity that BW had, we likewise have to believe that 5 years from now, we will have many players that are astronomically better than even the current best players, just as there were many BW players in 2010 that were astronomically better than every one of the bonjwa that came before them.
Not necessarily. Theoretically, LoL could be around 5 years from now, but growth in skill could slow rapidly as the game apparently does not have a skill ceiling near to BW. the best of all time could only be 10-25% better than faker, rather than as great of a difference as there was between Boxer and flash, or even oov. Because a team game will have a longer lifespan after a skill cap is reached compared to a 1v1 game. even if a player reaches a skill cap, his team has not yet, and until both his team and at least one other team reach the skill cap alongside all their players, the game won't stop its appeal.
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I don't believe one can go alot higher in terms of mechanical skill when you're considering Faker. On the team level as a whole though... there I can see much improvement still being done, whether it being new strats or refining existing ones.
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On July 28 2014 01:53 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2014 01:47 Shikyo wrote:
^ Keep in mind the state of SCBW in general. The game was on the decline, I'd imagine that newer players weren't coming along simply because they weren't putting as much effort into it because it wasn't such a promising progaming opportunity anymore. SC2, LoL and such took most of the potential next godlike players so we were left with the ones who already were excellent.
The player pool was already in the situation I mentioned before SC2 replaced BW in any capacity (remember how lukewarm the response to SC2 was even at the casual level at WoL's release) and LoL wasn't even in Korea yet. Regardless, Flash's place in BW history is not simply as an incredibly dominant player who stood above his incredibly skilled peers. Regarding him just as that is a disservice to his level of play. Flash's position in BW history is as arguably the greatest BW player of all time--achieving dominance in a time when people thought dominance was no longer possible. LoL simply isn't old enough yet for me to be convinced that any current player is in contention for that title yet. If we are to believe that League will have the competitive longevity that BW had, we likewise have to believe that 5 years from now, we will have many players that are astronomically better than even the current best players, just as there were many BW players in 2010 that were astronomically better than every one of the bonjwa that came before them.
I think the situation in terms of player pool weren't that bad. I still clearly remember a lot of young players trying to make names for themselves in that period. Notable teamleague heroes like Sea and Leta were finally starting to make solid runs in OSL's, Fantasy and Jangbi were defeating TBLS on multiple occasions and there were a number of solid rookies like Mini, by.Sun (now known as Rain), Killer and BaBy (I know, not really a rookie but he'll always be one in my heart <3).
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EPT
