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United States47024 Posts
Somewhat late, but:
On July 26 2014 16:46 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 15:33 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 26 2014 15:20 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2014 15:08 Gahlo wrote:On July 26 2014 14:49 Sufficiency wrote:
Well, this is kind of broken. Challenger players now has a 58% chance to play on purple side because Riot's new matchmaking algorithm places better players on the purple side to compensate for the blue side advantage. If they want blue, they should just suck more. I plan to run a test to see what happens to the top (say) 10 soloQ ladder players. Maybe they play on purple 80% of the time or something. Pretty sure Riot's algorithm is bugged. I plan to blog this tomorrow. Purple has always had the higher ELO. they probably just intensified that advantage to try to guarantee a better winrate. if thats what they did, thats a shoddy and somewhat deceptive way of "fixing" blue side advantage. I doubt it. People always say that, but until these two months I have not seen anyone quoting any Rioter saying purple side has higher Elo.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/leaguecraft/purple-does-have-a-very-slight-disadvantage/267255379959489?comment_id=4758514
Zileas confirms the purple side matchmaking advantage back in 2011. Obviously that's old, but:
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3344919
Acknowledged as still being in place by a QA Analyst about a year ago.
The Zileas quote has been the go-to source for proof of the purple side matchmaking advantage for a long time, so I'm not sure how you never encountered it before.
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On July 27 2014 04:44 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 04:36 Frolossus wrote:
i still don't understand why the side thing is an issue if they just make it so everyone plays either side 50% of the time Two reasons 1) Tournaments cannot reasonably be played long enough to cancel out the bias. Its not like chess where you can have 10 game quaterfinals and semifinals and a 'best of 24' championship round to cancel out the bias. Whomever starts blue side has a pretty large advantage because of the "best of 3/5" methods 2) The optimal strategy has been to dodge if you're blue. Ironically while this fixes this is also means that people who don't get to play 50/50 blue/purple will have MMR's lower than they ought to be (because they're denied the advantage in a number of games)
your reasons are dumb
1. pro games typically show reasonably even winrates for blue and purple iirc. the map disadvantage is not as big a deal in tournaments as it's balanced by dragon/baron advantage, plus first pick/ban advantage. On top of that, teams can play around the map bias. Solo queue requires jigging with the MMR because a big way to get around the map bias is via coordination that isn't present in solo queue.
2. i have no idea if the "optimal strategy" really is to just dodge when you're blue. but most players will play a large enough number of games that the blue/purple bias will even out.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 27 2014 04:55 Ryuu314 wrote:
1. pro games typically show reasonably even winrates for blue and purple iirc. the map disadvantage is not as big a deal in tournaments as it's balanced by dragon/baron advantage, plus first pick/ban advantage. On top of that, teams can play around the map bias.
That's not even close to true. Though it's varied somewhat from patch to patch and from region to region, there have been versions that showed blue side winrate of up to 60%. Many of the regions showing closer to 50% winrates also have displayed large skill disparities which tend to even out winrates in round robin play when each team is guaranteed to play an even number of games as each side, and the best teams beat the worse teams regardless of side.
Dragon/Baron and first pick advantage favor blue side by conventional wisdom, so I'm not sure how that "balances" anything.
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On July 27 2014 04:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 04:55 Ryuu314 wrote:
1. pro games typically show reasonably even winrates for blue and purple iirc. the map disadvantage is not as big a deal in tournaments as it's balanced by dragon/baron advantage, plus first pick/ban advantage. On top of that, teams can play around the map bias.
That's not even close to true. Though it's varied somewhat from patch to patch and from region to region, there have been versions that showed blue side winrate of up to 60%. Many of the regions showing closer to 50% winrates also have displayed large skill disparities which tend to even out winrates in round robin play when each team is guaranteed to play an even number of games as each side, and the best teams beat the worse teams regardless of side. Dragon/Baron and first pick advantage favor blue side by conventional wisdom, so I'm not sure how that "balances" anything.
win rate for blue side has been nowhere near 60% as of late. In the past, sure, but not in season 4. we had some map changes with s4 overhaul.
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On July 27 2014 05:04 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 04:59 TheYango wrote:On July 27 2014 04:55 Ryuu314 wrote:
1. pro games typically show reasonably even winrates for blue and purple iirc. the map disadvantage is not as big a deal in tournaments as it's balanced by dragon/baron advantage, plus first pick/ban advantage. On top of that, teams can play around the map bias.
That's not even close to true. Though it's varied somewhat from patch to patch and from region to region, there have been versions that showed blue side winrate of up to 60%. Many of the regions showing closer to 50% winrates also have displayed large skill disparities which tend to even out winrates in round robin play when each team is guaranteed to play an even number of games as each side, and the best teams beat the worse teams regardless of side. Dragon/Baron and first pick advantage favor blue side by conventional wisdom, so I'm not sure how that "balances" anything. win rate for blue side has been nowhere near 60% as of late. In the past, sure, but not in season 4. we had some map changes with s4 overhaul.
And weren't teams picking purple side last split specifically because you get to counter your opponent better and the ability to get two pieces to your comp on the first pick?
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Teams are actually generally bad at "abusing" this by banning around their ability to snatch two high priority picks in exchange for one thanks to that and having the last ban. It has happened, but it's really been rare occurrences.
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On July 27 2014 04:53 TheYango wrote:Somewhat late, but: Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 16:46 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2014 15:33 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 26 2014 15:20 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2014 15:08 Gahlo wrote:On July 26 2014 14:49 Sufficiency wrote:
Well, this is kind of broken. Challenger players now has a 58% chance to play on purple side because Riot's new matchmaking algorithm places better players on the purple side to compensate for the blue side advantage. If they want blue, they should just suck more. I plan to run a test to see what happens to the top (say) 10 soloQ ladder players. Maybe they play on purple 80% of the time or something. Pretty sure Riot's algorithm is bugged. I plan to blog this tomorrow. Purple has always had the higher ELO. they probably just intensified that advantage to try to guarantee a better winrate. if thats what they did, thats a shoddy and somewhat deceptive way of "fixing" blue side advantage. I doubt it. People always say that, but until these two months I have not seen anyone quoting any Rioter saying purple side has higher Elo. https://www.facebook.com/notes/leaguecraft/purple-does-have-a-very-slight-disadvantage/267255379959489?comment_id=4758514Zileas confirms the purple side matchmaking advantage back in 2011. Obviously that's old, but: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3344919Acknowledged as still being in place by a QA Analyst about a year ago. The Zileas quote has been the go-to source for proof of the purple side matchmaking advantage for a long time, so I'm not sure how you never encountered it before.
he had the PX said it -> therefore i disbelieve it proof though! its flawless!
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On July 27 2014 04:55 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 04:44 Goumindong wrote:On July 27 2014 04:36 Frolossus wrote:
i still don't understand why the side thing is an issue if they just make it so everyone plays either side 50% of the time Two reasons 1) Tournaments cannot reasonably be played long enough to cancel out the bias. Its not like chess where you can have 10 game quaterfinals and semifinals and a 'best of 24' championship round to cancel out the bias. Whomever starts blue side has a pretty large advantage because of the "best of 3/5" methods 2) The optimal strategy has been to dodge if you're blue. Ironically while this fixes this is also means that people who don't get to play 50/50 blue/purple will have MMR's lower than they ought to be (because they're denied the advantage in a number of games) your reasons are dumb 1. pro games typically show reasonably even winrates for blue and purple iirc. the map disadvantage is not as big a deal in tournaments as it's balanced by dragon/baron advantage, plus first pick/ban advantage. On top of that, teams can play around the map bias. Solo queue requires jigging with the MMR because a big way to get around the map bias is via coordination that isn't present in solo queue. 2. i have no idea if the "optimal strategy" really is to just dodge when you're blue. but most players will play a large enough number of games that the blue/purple bias will even out.
I meant to say purple but yes. Prior to this if you dodged purple games your MMR would go up because blue side had a win advantage and dodging purple side games would mean you would play more blue side games. Your MMR would increase until your lack of skill accounted for the very large advantage of playing on blue side
Its exactly the same type of effect as dodging a game you knew would be a 4v5 in their favor.
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Blue has obvious advantage, since their bot can take golems y'know. Oh wait, wrong year.
Edit: Debonair Ez looks dandy! In the artwork at least.
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Well its more like "Blue has an obvious advantage because we have measured it, we have the technology... and furthermore we're pretty certain its viewing angle because the advantage persists in ARAM[even all for one mode!] but does not persist in TT"
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On July 27 2014 05:23 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 05:04 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 27 2014 04:59 TheYango wrote:On July 27 2014 04:55 Ryuu314 wrote:
1. pro games typically show reasonably even winrates for blue and purple iirc. the map disadvantage is not as big a deal in tournaments as it's balanced by dragon/baron advantage, plus first pick/ban advantage. On top of that, teams can play around the map bias.
That's not even close to true. Though it's varied somewhat from patch to patch and from region to region, there have been versions that showed blue side winrate of up to 60%. Many of the regions showing closer to 50% winrates also have displayed large skill disparities which tend to even out winrates in round robin play when each team is guaranteed to play an even number of games as each side, and the best teams beat the worse teams regardless of side. Dragon/Baron and first pick advantage favor blue side by conventional wisdom, so I'm not sure how that "balances" anything. win rate for blue side has been nowhere near 60% as of late. In the past, sure, but not in season 4. we had some map changes with s4 overhaul. And weren't teams picking purple side last split specifically because you get to counter your opponent better and the ability to get two pieces to your comp on the first pick?
On purple you also run into the issue of having to ban the 1st pick/ban status champions.
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On July 27 2014 04:53 TheYango wrote:Somewhat late, but: Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 16:46 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2014 15:33 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 26 2014 15:20 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2014 15:08 Gahlo wrote:On July 26 2014 14:49 Sufficiency wrote:
Well, this is kind of broken. Challenger players now has a 58% chance to play on purple side because Riot's new matchmaking algorithm places better players on the purple side to compensate for the blue side advantage. If they want blue, they should just suck more. I plan to run a test to see what happens to the top (say) 10 soloQ ladder players. Maybe they play on purple 80% of the time or something. Pretty sure Riot's algorithm is bugged. I plan to blog this tomorrow. Purple has always had the higher ELO. they probably just intensified that advantage to try to guarantee a better winrate. if thats what they did, thats a shoddy and somewhat deceptive way of "fixing" blue side advantage. I doubt it. People always say that, but until these two months I have not seen anyone quoting any Rioter saying purple side has higher Elo. https://www.facebook.com/notes/leaguecraft/purple-does-have-a-very-slight-disadvantage/267255379959489?comment_id=4758514Zileas confirms the purple side matchmaking advantage back in 2011. Obviously that's old, but: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3344919Acknowledged as still being in place by a QA Analyst about a year ago. The Zileas quote has been the go-to source for proof of the purple side matchmaking advantage for a long time, so I'm not sure how you never encountered it before.
Fair, but what they did back in June was not a 10 elo difference. It was huge. The scale of change last month was many times bigger than whatever Zilean was saying in 2011.
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On July 27 2014 05:38 Volband wrote:
Blue has obvious advantage, since their bot can take golems y'know. Oh wait, wrong year.
Edit: Debonair Ez looks dandy! In the artwork at least.
It is an advantage actually and can win you lane.The wight was supposed to fix it but he does too much damage and pretty much only caitlyn can kill him without taking damage lol.
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On July 27 2014 06:16 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 04:53 TheYango wrote:Somewhat late, but: On July 26 2014 16:46 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2014 15:33 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 26 2014 15:20 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2014 15:08 Gahlo wrote:On July 26 2014 14:49 Sufficiency wrote:
Well, this is kind of broken. Challenger players now has a 58% chance to play on purple side because Riot's new matchmaking algorithm places better players on the purple side to compensate for the blue side advantage. If they want blue, they should just suck more. I plan to run a test to see what happens to the top (say) 10 soloQ ladder players. Maybe they play on purple 80% of the time or something. Pretty sure Riot's algorithm is bugged. I plan to blog this tomorrow. Purple has always had the higher ELO. they probably just intensified that advantage to try to guarantee a better winrate. if thats what they did, thats a shoddy and somewhat deceptive way of "fixing" blue side advantage. I doubt it. People always say that, but until these two months I have not seen anyone quoting any Rioter saying purple side has higher Elo. https://www.facebook.com/notes/leaguecraft/purple-does-have-a-very-slight-disadvantage/267255379959489?comment_id=4758514Zileas confirms the purple side matchmaking advantage back in 2011. Obviously that's old, but: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3344919Acknowledged as still being in place by a QA Analyst about a year ago. The Zileas quote has been the go-to source for proof of the purple side matchmaking advantage for a long time, so I'm not sure how you never encountered it before. Fair, but what they did back in June was not a 10 elo difference. It was huge. The scale of change last month was many times bigger than whatever Zilean was saying in 2011.
We treat the effect flat around that level. It's smaller at low elos, larger at highish elo, and highly variable at very high elo (as in, we can't seem to figure out what the effect is there).
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On July 27 2014 06:05 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 05:23 Shotcoder wrote:On July 27 2014 05:04 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 27 2014 04:59 TheYango wrote:On July 27 2014 04:55 Ryuu314 wrote:
1. pro games typically show reasonably even winrates for blue and purple iirc. the map disadvantage is not as big a deal in tournaments as it's balanced by dragon/baron advantage, plus first pick/ban advantage. On top of that, teams can play around the map bias.
That's not even close to true. Though it's varied somewhat from patch to patch and from region to region, there have been versions that showed blue side winrate of up to 60%. Many of the regions showing closer to 50% winrates also have displayed large skill disparities which tend to even out winrates in round robin play when each team is guaranteed to play an even number of games as each side, and the best teams beat the worse teams regardless of side. Dragon/Baron and first pick advantage favor blue side by conventional wisdom, so I'm not sure how that "balances" anything. win rate for blue side has been nowhere near 60% as of late. In the past, sure, but not in season 4. we had some map changes with s4 overhaul. And weren't teams picking purple side last split specifically because you get to counter your opponent better and the ability to get two pieces to your comp on the first pick? On purple you also run into the issue of having to ban the 1st pick/ban status champions.
This is true. Kassadin? Must ban by purple. Or you better have a bloody good counter strategy, lest you end up with another Alliance vs CW.
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On July 27 2014 00:04 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 23:54 Vanka wrote:
The thing about ashe having no steroid is that her slow lets her do a lot of extra damage in practice. If you're a support and you accidentally get within 600 range of ashe, you're dead, and often even flashing away doesn't help. With the exclusion of champs with multiple jumps, unless you gib ashe immediately you're basically dead if you let her build up to late game.
Additionally, thanks to how difficult it is to escape from her, if you're ashe and you get an advantage in lane, you do have some very sharp dueling with enemy squishes, so there is a lot of snowballing you can do well, and arrow is insane for pick-offs in solo queue.
also passive crit + volley follow up on arrow and a burst support like annie or zyra can oneshot a lot of people, not to mention great jungler follow up Late game i would rather have any ADC other than Ashe 9/10 times slow or no slow tbh.
Whoa whoa whoa now. Ashe is actually one of the best late game carries as far as adc picks are concerned. A free crit opener, great range, great attack speed AND one of the strongest initiate picks? Those are like late game dream tools.
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Depends. Her AS is worse than several ADs when their steroid is up (especially the popular Tristana, and Kog's W makes up for it in terms of overall damage), so even with the sure crit once they actually have items her passive's advantage gets reduced ("Oh I have IE+PD, there's only a 45% chance that your passive provides something"). It works better in skirmishes/sieges when she can have it recharge and then use it several times in a row over just using it once in a fight where most of her autos would be crits anyway.
Also picks don't do that much in the current meta since everyone stalls and disengage.
Remember when shit like Ashe, Varus and Fiddlesticks made people actually use Cleanse? Now with broken Heal and everyone running stalling and disengage and Banshee's galore a single pick doesn't mean much and it can easily get negated.
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On July 27 2014 08:52 Alaric wrote:
Depends. Her AS is worse than several ADs when their steroid is up (especially the popular Tristana, and Kog's W makes up for it in terms of overall damage), so even with the sure crit once they actually have items her passive's advantage gets reduced ("Oh I have IE+PD, there's only a 45% chance that your passive provides something"). It works better in skirmishes/sieges when she can have it recharge and then use it several times in a row over just using it once in a fight where most of her autos would be crits anyway.
Also picks don't do that much in the current meta since everyone stalls and disengage.
Remember when shit like Ashe, Varus and Fiddlesticks made people actually use Cleanse? Now with broken Heal and everyone running stalling and disengage and Banshee's galore a single pick doesn't mean much and it can easily get negated.
Ashe has the highest attack speed growth in the game. Combined with an above average base attack speed means that she uses attack speed items better than other champions. With just a Shiv or PD she hits as fast or faster than any other AD except Trist with Q up, or Jinx with machine gun.
Ashe has a crapton of weaknesses, but a bad late game isn't one of them.
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I do have to say though. A few months ago Ashe had like 51-52% win rate. Not 100% sure she is back to 50%.
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On July 27 2014 08:56 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 08:52 Alaric wrote:
Depends. Her AS is worse than several ADs when their steroid is up (especially the popular Tristana, and Kog's W makes up for it in terms of overall damage), so even with the sure crit once they actually have items her passive's advantage gets reduced ("Oh I have IE+PD, there's only a 45% chance that your passive provides something"). It works better in skirmishes/sieges when she can have it recharge and then use it several times in a row over just using it once in a fight where most of her autos would be crits anyway.
Also picks don't do that much in the current meta since everyone stalls and disengage.
Remember when shit like Ashe, Varus and Fiddlesticks made people actually use Cleanse? Now with broken Heal and everyone running stalling and disengage and Banshee's galore a single pick doesn't mean much and it can easily get negated. Ashe has the highest attack speed growth in the game. Combined with an above average base attack speed means that she uses attack speed items better than other champions. With just a Shiv or PD she hits as fast or faster than any other AD except Trist with Q up, or Jinx with machine gun. Ashe has a crapton of weaknesses, but a bad late game isn't one of them.
Or many of the other AD's once they've used their steroids.
Ashe with PD 1.46076 attacks/second
Ezreal with PD attacks up to 1.565 times/second (full passive)
Varus w/ minon/monster kill and PD 1.47 attacks/second. Champion kill 1.605
Draven Catching Axes 1.620094 attacks/second
MF with W active 1.7330208 attacks/second
Twitch Out of Stealth 1.9069036 attacks/second
Kog'Maw with PD 1.514205 attacks/second
The only champions which attack slower than Ashe after their steroid are Lucian(not sure how to account for Lucian's auto reset and passive in his effective attack speed), Vayne, and Corki, and Caitlyn. Only Jinx and Kog'Maw attack faster "without" their steroid.
In terms of teamfight DPS the only champion who is reliably lower than Ashe is Caitlyn. Her power is tied up entirely in her ult and if you don't land it in the mid game to get ahead, god help you
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EPT
