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On July 17 2014 21:40 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Essence Reaver is a good buy on Ezreal, imo. 80 AD is nothing to sneeze at and it keeps him topped off during midgame roams where you'd otherwise go oom.
I tried it on Jax, where it was totally useless, but still I think that the item has potential as soon as people find a way to abuse the mana regen it gives, which is insane. I feel like Talon might be a character to build it on if he wasn't already so pressed on time to buy items.
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The problem with essence reaver is that CDR and mana arent stats really needed atm on adc(except maybe ez).Unless they it gets like 100 ad and therefore replaces bloodthirster i dont see it being a first go to item for most adc that arent ez.
And even ez prefers triforce rush usually. It could be a decent 2nd item or maybe implented in a blue build as first item
edit: Maybe new lucian can play it? I havent tested him yet
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CDR is useful on ADC, but the options are too limited
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Tried to play Lucian top without Essence Reaver -- I think he really needs it. Otherwise you run oom way too quickly harassing.
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20% With less AD would make it pretty good I imagine. At least Ez would like it.
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On July 17 2014 23:26 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Tried to play Lucian top without Essence Reaver -- I think he really needs it. Otherwise you run oom way too quickly harassing.
by the time you finish essence reaver are you really gonna be in lane 1v1 against someone for long enough that sheen + mana pots won't be enough? being able to spam Q's to win lane would be great, but i don't see how the ER timing hits early enough to decide the lane.
On July 17 2014 23:02 Bam Lee wrote:
The problem with essence reaver is that CDR and mana arent stats really needed atm on adc(except maybe ez).Unless they it gets like 100 ad and therefore replaces bloodthirster i dont see it being a first go to item for most adc that arent ez.
And even ez prefers triforce rush usually. It could be a decent 2nd item or maybe implented in a blue build as first item
edit: Maybe new lucian can play it? I havent tested him yet
it's not that the cdr and mana aren't useful, it's that you get literally zero of either stat until you complete the 3k+ item.
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On July 17 2014 23:26 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Tried to play Lucian top without Essence Reaver -- I think he really needs it. Otherwise you run oom way too quickly harassing.
Depending on matchup. You're probably are just looking to split farm evenly between whoever you're against and looking to outscale due to the fact that your team has a second adc. Probably better off just saving money and just purchase mana pots for lane
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Sounds like poor mana management to me.You have 1 mana ability that you should use in lane and costs 70 at lvl 9.You could just buy 1/2 mana pots every time you back.
If you are THAT mana starved you could just go 21/6/3 or something similar and that will fix all mana issues you can have.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Well I was up against Nasus, which is an extremely favorable matchup. He had TP and with jungler assistance held onto his tower for a long time. So early lane advantage + constant harass + needing to stay in lane for a while meant I went ER -> ghostblade.
I do agree it's suboptimal, though. Imagine if ER was Vamp Scepter + Brutalizer, how awesome that would be. Not really sure what the best way to build top Lucian is, balancing his need for:
1) either TF or IBG
2) BotRK
3) CDR
4) Mana
5) Sustain
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i just bought a tear while practicing in a custom game and lucian's E was definitely giving him stacks
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Play top lane vayne instead.
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Lucian has a lot more potential in this particular situation, Vayne is one of the worst Ads vs wither whilst Lucian is the best, especially now.
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i feel like lucian is a better aggressive laner now especially with a nami but have way more issues now team fighting with him for me.
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On July 18 2014 01:03 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Well I was up against Nasus, which is an extremely favorable matchup. He had TP and with jungler assistance held onto his tower for a long time. So early lane advantage + constant harass + needing to stay in lane for a while meant I went ER -> ghostblade.
I do agree it's suboptimal, though. Imagine if ER was Vamp Scepter + Brutalizer, how awesome that would be. Not really sure what the best way to build top Lucian is, balancing his need for:
1) either TF or IBG
2) BotRK
3) CDR
4) Mana
5) Sustain
I ran old Lucian vs Nasus and i can't see how you'd have mana issues at all. Bad mana management tbh.
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On July 18 2014 02:35 Ethelis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 01:03 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Well I was up against Nasus, which is an extremely favorable matchup. He had TP and with jungler assistance held onto his tower for a long time. So early lane advantage + constant harass + needing to stay in lane for a while meant I went ER -> ghostblade.
I do agree it's suboptimal, though. Imagine if ER was Vamp Scepter + Brutalizer, how awesome that would be. Not really sure what the best way to build top Lucian is, balancing his need for:
1) either TF or IBG
2) BotRK
3) CDR
4) Mana
5) Sustain I ran old Lucian vs Nasus and i can't see how you'd have mana issues at all. Bad mana management tbh.
Yeah, tried a game earlier and had no mana problems at all. Just harass with autos/your e passive proc, and use q every now and then if you have the mana to spare. Only use w if you're going for an all in kill.
How are you running oom on someone who only has one real spell which uses mana in lane?
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On July 17 2014 14:33 Scip wrote:
I'm just dumb, he used to be like 3rd or 4th highest winrate so I looked there, didn't see Fiddle and concluded he isn't top10. He actually moved to the #1 spot this week! :D
Out of curiouisity, where do you find winrates for champions? I've looked at lolkings but I'm not sure it's accurate.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I agree that I can dial back the spellcasting and/or rush Sheen (I was going Phage first) given that Essence Reaver is an awkward item and you would prefer not to build it. That being said, "bad mana management" or "playing too passive in lane"? Using your spells more means more harass and zoning. Using your Q on cooldown applies much more pressure than holding back. You can play Ziggs and never run out of mana too, especially if you base every other wave, but I doubt your team would appreciate that.
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On July 17 2014 17:15 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 15:00 Goumindong wrote:On July 17 2014 14:54 AsianEcksDragon wrote:On July 17 2014 14:44 Scip wrote:
The reason why Athene was so big is that generally middle laners need to use their spells to clear waves (and clearing waves is more crucial for them than for ADCs) while ADCs can oftentimes make do with autoattacks or a spell that usually doesn't cost much mana. I know that. My point is that Athene's was not always considered so much better than its counterparts. Abyssal, Wota, and DFG were all built more often at one point before Riot overbuffed it to have more AP while still having a lot of MR and mana regen. If they overbuff ER then people will eventually build it and then even subsequent nerf back to earth might be enough to persuade people to abandon it. They are playing a really dangerous game with buffing utility items into matching pure damage items in damage. No, athenes came into heavy play when burst mages were nerfed and when other changes which favored wave clearing occurred. It actually started out more gold efficient and more slot efficient (it had 80 AP for current price). Riot never buffed it Edit: Athenes wasn't built at the time of its release primarily because the mages being played were single rotation mages and not poke/clear mages. Building Athenes gave you 80AP but so did building NLR and NLR was cheaper and on the way to Zhonya and Deathcap and DFG. The meta shift that occurred pushed people away from champions like Ahri and Lissandra and towards Ziggs and Nidalee. The need to counteract the resulting poke and siege comps demanded heavy wave clear and heavy wave clear demanded AP, CDR, and Mana. IE pimp cup. The blue buff nerfs to CDR didn't hurt either. I love how everyone always neglects to mention the massive 20% cdr on Athenes when comparing Athenes to Essence Reaver. Athene's was underbought and underestimated on release, but it was also arguably undertuned. It took several (over)buffs and meta changes before Athene's became a staple. Athene's returning 15% of your max mana on kill/assist isn't irrelevant either. AD champs generally don't rely that heavily on mana and the ones that do generally don't see much play anyways. If you do need mana on an AD champ, I'd still argue that you're better off with Muramana. There's practically no reason to ever buy Essence Reaver, even on Jayce imo.
I am not comparing ER to Cup. I was simply stating that Cup was not buffed on live ever. It came out with 20% cdr, 80 AP, and 40 MR. It wasn't used not because it was bad but because the Meta favored assassins and making picks.
That being said, ER is a good item on certain ADs. It allows them to get muramana and ignore mana constraints the rest of the game. Because it's an 80 AD item it's a viable late game alternative to BT for champions that have mana constrained late and mid games but don't need the shield as much. The CDR is just icing on the cake for someone like Lucian (40% CDR from ER, boots, Runes), or Ezreal, or Talon, or Jayce.
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On July 18 2014 02:51 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 17:15 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 17 2014 15:00 Goumindong wrote:On July 17 2014 14:54 AsianEcksDragon wrote:On July 17 2014 14:44 Scip wrote:
The reason why Athene was so big is that generally middle laners need to use their spells to clear waves (and clearing waves is more crucial for them than for ADCs) while ADCs can oftentimes make do with autoattacks or a spell that usually doesn't cost much mana. I know that. My point is that Athene's was not always considered so much better than its counterparts. Abyssal, Wota, and DFG were all built more often at one point before Riot overbuffed it to have more AP while still having a lot of MR and mana regen. If they overbuff ER then people will eventually build it and then even subsequent nerf back to earth might be enough to persuade people to abandon it. They are playing a really dangerous game with buffing utility items into matching pure damage items in damage. No, athenes came into heavy play when burst mages were nerfed and when other changes which favored wave clearing occurred. It actually started out more gold efficient and more slot efficient (it had 80 AP for current price). Riot never buffed it Edit: Athenes wasn't built at the time of its release primarily because the mages being played were single rotation mages and not poke/clear mages. Building Athenes gave you 80AP but so did building NLR and NLR was cheaper and on the way to Zhonya and Deathcap and DFG. The meta shift that occurred pushed people away from champions like Ahri and Lissandra and towards Ziggs and Nidalee. The need to counteract the resulting poke and siege comps demanded heavy wave clear and heavy wave clear demanded AP, CDR, and Mana. IE pimp cup. The blue buff nerfs to CDR didn't hurt either. I love how everyone always neglects to mention the massive 20% cdr on Athenes when comparing Athenes to Essence Reaver. Athene's was underbought and underestimated on release, but it was also arguably undertuned. It took several (over)buffs and meta changes before Athene's became a staple. Athene's returning 15% of your max mana on kill/assist isn't irrelevant either. AD champs generally don't rely that heavily on mana and the ones that do generally don't see much play anyways. If you do need mana on an AD champ, I'd still argue that you're better off with Muramana. There's practically no reason to ever buy Essence Reaver, even on Jayce imo. I am not comparing ER to Cup. I was simply stating that Cup was not buffed on live ever. It came out with 20% cdr, 80 AP, and 40 MR. It wasn't used not because it was bad but because the Meta favored assassins and making picks. That being said, ER is a good item on certain ADs. It allows them to get muramana and ignore mana constraints the rest of the game. Because it's an 80 AD item it's a viable late game alternative to BT for champions that have mana constrained late and mid games but don't need the shield as much. The CDR is just icing on the cake for someone like Lucian (40% CDR from ER, boots, Runes), or Ezreal, or Talon, or Jayce.
That's not true...
It came out with 80 AP, 36 MR, 15 mana regen, and 15% CDR on patch v1.0.0.140. It got buffed to 90 AP and 40 MR patch v1.0.0.142. People started buying it more here, but it was still underbought imo. Then Riot nerfed it by changing the recipe, lowered the cost from 2950 to 2800, and also lowered the AP from 90 to 60 in v1.0.0.152. At the start of Season 3, Riot buffed Athene's again by lowering the recipe by 200 gold and buffing the CDR to 20% in two consecutive patches.
They finally nerfed it two patches ago, for basically the first time since season 2.
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EPT
