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United States1036 Posts
On July 17 2014 13:30 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 13:20 Goumindong wrote:On July 17 2014 13:14 Gahlo wrote:On July 17 2014 13:05 arb wrote:On July 17 2014 12:56 Gahlo wrote:On July 17 2014 12:42 ticklishmusic wrote:It wrecks support Vel'Koz, which IMO was the only good way to play him. Which I think is kind of silly because the same issues that people apply to him apply to Syndra too, but she's considered a decent pick. Especially with this ult ratio change. On July 17 2014 12:51 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
So...Essence Reaver is finally a good item. Still not as good as IE but it's definitely an item to consider besides IE or Mercurial. No it isn't. I'd actually say it's worse now than last patch. It's alot better than it was lol. You can actually use it in place of another lifesteal item if you need the mana back on hit. aka jayce You're paying +800 gold and a shittier build path for 10 AD. 20 AD. It tied for the cheapest 80 AD item in the game. And lets champions who rely on mana more than those who don't utilize it fully in a lategame build. I think it's a much better item in lategame, but its first item timing is still underwhelming. Shoulda gave it free AD without increasing cost, so it's first item timing would be more competitive. I'm not even sure why they're trying to make the item good, if it does become good it'll be athene's cancer level good.
Remember when Athene's was considered trash back when it gave the same amount of AP? Then Riot buffed it to match AP items of the same price range (Morellomicon, Seraph, Abyssal, WoTA, RoA) and everyone started building it. Even after reverting the AP buff, nerfing MR to worse than release, and buffing back all the other items, Athene's is still universally picked over the others.
Athene's in its current state might not be that much better than Morellomicon or Seraph but new champions and player's playstyle changed around it. If Riot does the same for ER and nerf the hypercarries then maybe we will see more AD Caster marksmen in the future.
Edit: btw I think if Riot buffs mp5 on Doran's Ring, we can see the return of WoTA, or Abyssal.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
The reason why Athene was so big is that generally middle laners need to use their spells to clear waves (and clearing waves is more crucial for them than for ADCs) while ADCs can oftentimes make do with autoattacks or a spell that usually doesn't cost much mana.
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United States1036 Posts
On July 17 2014 14:44 Scip wrote:
The reason why Athene was so big is that generally middle laners need to use their spells to clear waves (and clearing waves is more crucial for them than for ADCs) while ADCs can oftentimes make do with autoattacks or a spell that usually doesn't cost much mana.
I know that. My point is that Athene's was not always considered so much better than its counterparts. Abyssal, Wota, and DFG were all built more often at one point before Riot overbuffed it to have more AP while still having a lot of MR and mana regen. If they overbuff ER then people will eventually build it and then even subsequent nerf back to earth might be enough to persuade people to abandon it. They are playing a really dangerous game with buffing utility items into matching pure damage items in damage.
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On July 17 2014 14:54 AsianEcksDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 14:44 Scip wrote:
The reason why Athene was so big is that generally middle laners need to use their spells to clear waves (and clearing waves is more crucial for them than for ADCs) while ADCs can oftentimes make do with autoattacks or a spell that usually doesn't cost much mana. I know that. My point is that Athene's was not always considered so much better than its counterparts. Abyssal, Wota, and DFG were all built more often at one point before Riot overbuffed it to have more AP while still having a lot of MR and mana regen. If they overbuff ER then people will eventually build it and then even subsequent nerf back to earth might be enough to persuade people to abandon it. They are playing a really dangerous game with buffing utility items into matching pure damage items in damage.
No, athenes came into heavy play when burst mages were nerfed and when other changes which favored wave clearing occurred. It actually started out more gold efficient and more slot efficient (it had 80 AP for current price). Riot never buffed it
Edit: Athenes wasn't built at the time of its release primarily because the mages being played were single rotation mages and not poke/clear mages. Building Athenes gave you 80AP but so did building NLR and NLR was cheaper and on the way to Zhonya and Deathcap and DFG. The meta shift that occurred pushed people away from champions like Ahri and Lissandra and towards Ziggs and Nidalee. The need to counteract the resulting poke and siege comps demanded heavy wave clear and heavy wave clear demanded AP, CDR, and Mana. IE pimp cup.
The blue buff nerfs to CDR didn't hurt either.
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New Lucian reminds me of Riven -> scales really well with CDR, dashes everywhere, spells pewpew chain them with AAs for more spells pewpew.
It's like a fighting game character got lost and found himself in an RTS game. Although listening to the patch preview/postview it sounds way more like they want to remove as many strategic elements from it and make it a tactical brawling game (i.e. as seen in the refusal to touch the Pick/Ban phase and offer champions and items with distinct power curves).
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Going back to the Vel'Koz discussion, as he is becoming very close to my heart:
Support Vel'Koz isn't wrecked on PBE. Yes it took a damage hit. His R now has more utility with the stacking slow. This is should still be pretty darn useful, just means you aren't raw damage ult bot anymore. Plus other strengths of Vel'supp are unchanged: Still has great harass in lane, peel in team fights, and true damage. Plus less whinging that I'm stealing all the kills, and more potential setting up of kills.
Mid'Koz is highly underrated. Obviously Death cap is now a helluva lot better on him with PBE.
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It's a shoop, not a cosplay, but would be pretty boss if someone did it.
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On July 17 2014 15:00 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 14:54 AsianEcksDragon wrote:On July 17 2014 14:44 Scip wrote:
The reason why Athene was so big is that generally middle laners need to use their spells to clear waves (and clearing waves is more crucial for them than for ADCs) while ADCs can oftentimes make do with autoattacks or a spell that usually doesn't cost much mana. I know that. My point is that Athene's was not always considered so much better than its counterparts. Abyssal, Wota, and DFG were all built more often at one point before Riot overbuffed it to have more AP while still having a lot of MR and mana regen. If they overbuff ER then people will eventually build it and then even subsequent nerf back to earth might be enough to persuade people to abandon it. They are playing a really dangerous game with buffing utility items into matching pure damage items in damage. No, athenes came into heavy play when burst mages were nerfed and when other changes which favored wave clearing occurred. It actually started out more gold efficient and more slot efficient (it had 80 AP for current price). Riot never buffed it Edit: Athenes wasn't built at the time of its release primarily because the mages being played were single rotation mages and not poke/clear mages. Building Athenes gave you 80AP but so did building NLR and NLR was cheaper and on the way to Zhonya and Deathcap and DFG. The meta shift that occurred pushed people away from champions like Ahri and Lissandra and towards Ziggs and Nidalee. The need to counteract the resulting poke and siege comps demanded heavy wave clear and heavy wave clear demanded AP, CDR, and Mana. IE pimp cup. The blue buff nerfs to CDR didn't hurt either.
I love how everyone always neglects to mention the massive 20% cdr on Athenes when comparing Athenes to Essence Reaver. Athene's was underbought and underestimated on release, but it was also arguably undertuned. It took several (over)buffs and meta changes before Athene's became a staple. Athene's returning 15% of your max mana on kill/assist isn't irrelevant either.
AD champs generally don't rely that heavily on mana and the ones that do generally don't see much play anyways. If you do need mana on an AD champ, I'd still argue that you're better off with Muramana. There's practically no reason to ever buy Essence Reaver, even on Jayce imo.
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On July 17 2014 14:31 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 14:16 GolemMadness wrote:On July 17 2014 14:03 wei2coolman wrote:On July 17 2014 13:47 GolemMadness wrote:
So at level 16 with 600 AP, Velkoz can do 1,500 magic damage and 370 true damage (if the target already has one passive stack). Could be pretty good with some comps. fiddlesticks does the same amount of damage with like 200 ap. lol. Yeah, but it takes two times longer to do that damage and Fiddlesticks is a pretty strong jungler in solo queue. fiddle can at least zhonya's mid way. Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 14:31 Scip wrote:
It's interesting that Fiddlesticks is no longer one of the highest winrate champions in the game, he used to be there for a very long time. He actually stuck around in top10 a pretty long time after his latest nerfs too. Whatever happened to our love, it used to be so good? he used to have a good single target cc. then they butcherd it's length. then made it even worse to make them always walk away.
I'm still angry when i polymorph someone as Lulu when im trying to run away and they fucking rng walk towards me everytime
:<<<<
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a question about graves, when graves ult hit 1 person, does that player takes the damage from the 2nd effect too?
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On July 17 2014 17:27 justiceknight wrote:
a question about graves, when graves ult hit 1 person, does that player takes the damage from the 2nd effect too?
no
Active: Graves fires an explosive shell in a straight line, dealing heavy physical damage to any non-champion enemy it passes through, aswell as the first champion that collides with.
Impact Physical Damage: 250 / 350 / 450 (+ 150% bonus AD)
After hitting a champion or reaching the end of its range, the shell explodes dealing physical damage in a 800-range cone behind the target.
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On July 17 2014 17:25 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 14:31 wei2coolman wrote:On July 17 2014 14:16 GolemMadness wrote:On July 17 2014 14:03 wei2coolman wrote:On July 17 2014 13:47 GolemMadness wrote:
So at level 16 with 600 AP, Velkoz can do 1,500 magic damage and 370 true damage (if the target already has one passive stack). Could be pretty good with some comps. fiddlesticks does the same amount of damage with like 200 ap. lol. Yeah, but it takes two times longer to do that damage and Fiddlesticks is a pretty strong jungler in solo queue. fiddle can at least zhonya's mid way. On July 17 2014 14:31 Scip wrote:
It's interesting that Fiddlesticks is no longer one of the highest winrate champions in the game, he used to be there for a very long time. He actually stuck around in top10 a pretty long time after his latest nerfs too. Whatever happened to our love, it used to be so good? he used to have a good single target cc. then they butcherd it's length. then made it even worse to make them always walk away. I'm still angry when i polymorph someone as Lulu when im trying to run away and they fucking rng walk towards me everytime :<<<<
You can walk in whatever direction you want when you're polymorphed...
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On July 17 2014 17:31 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 17:25 arb wrote:On July 17 2014 14:31 wei2coolman wrote:On July 17 2014 14:16 GolemMadness wrote:On July 17 2014 14:03 wei2coolman wrote:On July 17 2014 13:47 GolemMadness wrote:
So at level 16 with 600 AP, Velkoz can do 1,500 magic damage and 370 true damage (if the target already has one passive stack). Could be pretty good with some comps. fiddlesticks does the same amount of damage with like 200 ap. lol. Yeah, but it takes two times longer to do that damage and Fiddlesticks is a pretty strong jungler in solo queue. fiddle can at least zhonya's mid way. On July 17 2014 14:31 Scip wrote:
It's interesting that Fiddlesticks is no longer one of the highest winrate champions in the game, he used to be there for a very long time. He actually stuck around in top10 a pretty long time after his latest nerfs too. Whatever happened to our love, it used to be so good? he used to have a good single target cc. then they butcherd it's length. then made it even worse to make them always walk away. I'm still angry when i polymorph someone as Lulu when im trying to run away and they fucking rng walk towards me everytime :<<<< You can walk in whatever direction you want when you're polymorphed...
TIL
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Meh, big nerf at level 6 since you won't be near the 200 AP required just to break even. What's that about the "stacking" slow though? The diff notes didn't seem to mention something like this.
Edit: Oh nevermind, I read them on RoG and they didn't quote the explanation.
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On July 17 2014 17:15 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 15:00 Goumindong wrote:On July 17 2014 14:54 AsianEcksDragon wrote:On July 17 2014 14:44 Scip wrote:
The reason why Athene was so big is that generally middle laners need to use their spells to clear waves (and clearing waves is more crucial for them than for ADCs) while ADCs can oftentimes make do with autoattacks or a spell that usually doesn't cost much mana. I know that. My point is that Athene's was not always considered so much better than its counterparts. Abyssal, Wota, and DFG were all built more often at one point before Riot overbuffed it to have more AP while still having a lot of MR and mana regen. If they overbuff ER then people will eventually build it and then even subsequent nerf back to earth might be enough to persuade people to abandon it. They are playing a really dangerous game with buffing utility items into matching pure damage items in damage. No, athenes came into heavy play when burst mages were nerfed and when other changes which favored wave clearing occurred. It actually started out more gold efficient and more slot efficient (it had 80 AP for current price). Riot never buffed it Edit: Athenes wasn't built at the time of its release primarily because the mages being played were single rotation mages and not poke/clear mages. Building Athenes gave you 80AP but so did building NLR and NLR was cheaper and on the way to Zhonya and Deathcap and DFG. The meta shift that occurred pushed people away from champions like Ahri and Lissandra and towards Ziggs and Nidalee. The need to counteract the resulting poke and siege comps demanded heavy wave clear and heavy wave clear demanded AP, CDR, and Mana. IE pimp cup. The blue buff nerfs to CDR didn't hurt either. I love how everyone always neglects to mention the massive 20% cdr on Athenes when comparing Athenes to Essence Reaver. Athene's was underbought and underestimated on release, but it was also arguably undertuned. It took several (over)buffs and meta changes before Athene's became a staple. Athene's returning 15% of your max mana on kill/assist isn't irrelevant either. AD champs generally don't rely that heavily on mana and the ones that do generally don't see much play anyways. If you do need mana on an AD champ, I'd still argue that you're better off with Muramana. There's practically no reason to ever buy Essence Reaver, even on Jayce imo.
Jayce I think you can make a case for as either a 3rd(after brut and manamune), or as a 5/6 slot. Lategame on jayce you need lifesteal, max CDR and damage, and this item has all 3.
I still don't see other champs utilizing it as well as he does though, unless ADC top becomes a new thing. Very few mana based melee solos even get played, and I don't think any of them are particularly mana hungry.
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On July 17 2014 17:33 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 17:31 GolemMadness wrote:On July 17 2014 17:25 arb wrote:On July 17 2014 14:31 wei2coolman wrote:On July 17 2014 14:16 GolemMadness wrote:On July 17 2014 14:03 wei2coolman wrote:On July 17 2014 13:47 GolemMadness wrote:
So at level 16 with 600 AP, Velkoz can do 1,500 magic damage and 370 true damage (if the target already has one passive stack). Could be pretty good with some comps. fiddlesticks does the same amount of damage with like 200 ap. lol. Yeah, but it takes two times longer to do that damage and Fiddlesticks is a pretty strong jungler in solo queue. fiddle can at least zhonya's mid way. On July 17 2014 14:31 Scip wrote:
It's interesting that Fiddlesticks is no longer one of the highest winrate champions in the game, he used to be there for a very long time. He actually stuck around in top10 a pretty long time after his latest nerfs too. Whatever happened to our love, it used to be so good? he used to have a good single target cc. then they butcherd it's length. then made it even worse to make them always walk away. I'm still angry when i polymorph someone as Lulu when im trying to run away and they fucking rng walk towards me everytime :<<<< You can walk in whatever direction you want when you're polymorphed... TIL
roflmao
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Essence Reaver is a good buy on Ezreal, imo. 80 AD is nothing to sneeze at and it keeps him topped off during midgame roams where you'd otherwise go oom.
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On July 17 2014 21:04 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 17:33 arb wrote:On July 17 2014 17:31 GolemMadness wrote:On July 17 2014 17:25 arb wrote:On July 17 2014 14:31 wei2coolman wrote:On July 17 2014 14:16 GolemMadness wrote:On July 17 2014 14:03 wei2coolman wrote:On July 17 2014 13:47 GolemMadness wrote:
So at level 16 with 600 AP, Velkoz can do 1,500 magic damage and 370 true damage (if the target already has one passive stack). Could be pretty good with some comps. fiddlesticks does the same amount of damage with like 200 ap. lol. Yeah, but it takes two times longer to do that damage and Fiddlesticks is a pretty strong jungler in solo queue. fiddle can at least zhonya's mid way. On July 17 2014 14:31 Scip wrote:
It's interesting that Fiddlesticks is no longer one of the highest winrate champions in the game, he used to be there for a very long time. He actually stuck around in top10 a pretty long time after his latest nerfs too. Whatever happened to our love, it used to be so good? he used to have a good single target cc. then they butcherd it's length. then made it even worse to make them always walk away. I'm still angry when i polymorph someone as Lulu when im trying to run away and they fucking rng walk towards me everytime :<<<< You can walk in whatever direction you want when you're polymorphed... TIL roflmao
i feel like all my friends know that is the case and were just not telling me
omg
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On July 17 2014 22:10 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 21:04 Capped wrote:On July 17 2014 17:33 arb wrote:On July 17 2014 17:31 GolemMadness wrote:On July 17 2014 17:25 arb wrote:On July 17 2014 14:31 wei2coolman wrote:On July 17 2014 14:16 GolemMadness wrote:On July 17 2014 14:03 wei2coolman wrote:On July 17 2014 13:47 GolemMadness wrote:
So at level 16 with 600 AP, Velkoz can do 1,500 magic damage and 370 true damage (if the target already has one passive stack). Could be pretty good with some comps. fiddlesticks does the same amount of damage with like 200 ap. lol. Yeah, but it takes two times longer to do that damage and Fiddlesticks is a pretty strong jungler in solo queue. fiddle can at least zhonya's mid way. On July 17 2014 14:31 Scip wrote:
It's interesting that Fiddlesticks is no longer one of the highest winrate champions in the game, he used to be there for a very long time. He actually stuck around in top10 a pretty long time after his latest nerfs too. Whatever happened to our love, it used to be so good? he used to have a good single target cc. then they butcherd it's length. then made it even worse to make them always walk away. I'm still angry when i polymorph someone as Lulu when im trying to run away and they fucking rng walk towards me everytime :<<<< You can walk in whatever direction you want when you're polymorphed... TIL roflmao i feel like all my friends know that is the case and were just not telling me omg
"yeah, no you just totally have the worst luck ever *snickers*"
Friendly reminder Doom bots come out today for those of you who weren't able to get into the pbe :D
They're not up yet on NA. Life is over X_X
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EPT
