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Alright, we're going to call it a day with all the Thorin drama, guys. I figured if it was about SI, onGamers, TSM, etc, it had some relevance to League but somehow you guys managed to devolve the discussion into an issue about race of all things.
Enough is enough. Let's move along now.
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On June 09 2014 14:51 Sufficiency wrote:
I have not seen this 'talent scout' of loco at all. Can someone enlighten me on this? I did watch Summoning Insight.
Loco has very little competitive experience. He played 3 months for Najin shield, and a few months for Startale but that was ancient.
Didn't kkoma play BW for SKT? Kkoma is pretty old and he actually has a lot of experience.
Iirc, on SI, he named like 4(?) players he supposedly scouted. Can't name them off the top of my head, but I think Mata was one of 'em.
Loco was an original member of TSM. He was part of MIG Frost, Najin Shield, and Startale. On top of that, he was also the one who brought over the Korean Quantic team, which honestly did pretty well in the Challenger scene before they started choking and failed hard. Not to mention his brief stint as support for CLG.
kkoma was a sub in BW. He played a bit of SC2 but never made it out of RO32 in GSL. Kkoma's pro gaming career is pretty nonexistent. Certainly not any more impressive than Loco's.
Like...are you seriously trying to argue that a progamer who's played since beta and has a title under his belt has less game knowledge than someone who literally never plays the game (Monte) or someone who has never even made it to a semifinals of any league (kkoma)?
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I find it funny that this argument is happening without Bly around lol
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On June 09 2014 15:07 Slusher wrote:
I find it funny that this argument is happening without Bly around lol
If Bly was around Sufficiency would have been shut up already
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What kind of coach is he gunna be tho? Analyst kind? Macro strategy? Training coach? Pick/bans?
I personally don't see what the big deal is. He probably has a really good understanding of training structure of what they do in Korea, even just having a disciplined training coach will be a big benefit for TSM. Not to mention he was working pretty closely with Alliance earlier this split, analyzing their games and comms for them. There's no reason not to think he won't be a good coach tbh. At this rate, TSM would benefit picking up a homeless person as a coach. At least Loco has background in LoL, and a lot of contacts within Korean LoL, which says a fucking lot compared to a ton of other candidates.
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On June 09 2014 14:21 Sufficiency wrote:
It is not ridiculous at all. If you have not done anything to be successful yourself (in any capacity), how do you lead other people to success?
Are you serious...? How many current coaches had successful playing careers? How many of the top sports coaches in the world didn't even make it to the major leagues when they were players?
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On June 09 2014 15:38 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 14:21 Sufficiency wrote:
It is not ridiculous at all. If you have not done anything to be successful yourself (in any capacity), how do you lead other people to success? Are you serious...? How many current coaches had successful playing careers? How many of the top sports coaches in the world didn't even make it to the major leagues when they were players?
This is true. Playing skill is not an indicator of coaching ability.
To give an Australian example, Wayne Bennett and didn't achieve much playing success, but he is pretty much one of, if not the best, coaches Rugby League has seen.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On June 09 2014 15:38 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 14:21 Sufficiency wrote:
It is not ridiculous at all. If you have not done anything to be successful yourself (in any capacity), how do you lead other people to success? Are you serious...? How many current coaches had successful playing careers? How many of the top sports coaches in the world didn't even make it to the major leagues when they were players?
This. Totally this. Coaching skills is not the same as being succesfull as a player and you can find shitload of examples in different sports/leagues etc.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On June 09 2014 15:31 krndandaman wrote:
from what I've seen, being a good coach is less about your knowledge about the game but more about knowing how to manage your players. sure you're going to help form a plan and whatnot, but most of that is left to the analysts/players themselves. I feel like a lot of people mistake LoL coaches for traditional sport coaches where the latter actually has to draw up pretty much every play, minutes rotations, etc.
That's probably my concern with lomodoco coach, he doesn't come across to me at least as the kind of person that can manage bjergsen/amazing/wildturtle/gleeb effectively. Granted I'd probably have said the same thing about CLG and monte yet they seemed to be able to get their shit in gear and listen to monte-senpai.
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On June 09 2014 16:29 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 15:31 krndandaman wrote:
from what I've seen, being a good coach is less about your knowledge about the game but more about knowing how to manage your players. sure you're going to help form a plan and whatnot, but most of that is left to the analysts/players themselves. I feel like a lot of people mistake LoL coaches for traditional sport coaches where the latter actually has to draw up pretty much every play, minutes rotations, etc. That's probably my concern with lomodoco coach, he doesn't come across to me at least as the kind of person that can manage bjergsen/amazing/wildturtle/gleeb effectively. Granted I'd probably have said the same thing about CLG and monte yet they seemed to be able to get their shit in gear and listen to monte-senpai.
It's just gunna be a battle of ego's i feel. Regi is gunna have to back up loco really hard imo.
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United States37500 Posts
I think it's absolutely absurd that some of you are going off about how Loco won't be a good coach because he doesn't have a string of accolades. Most great coaches in traditional sports were average players themselves. Winningest coach in the NBA has two NBA championships himself but he was a reserve for one of those years and the other, he was benched the entire year due to an injury.
Sufficiency, stop posting bullshit. There are fewer examples of great players becoming great coaches than average player becoming great coaches. Only example of the former I can think of is BoxeR/iloveoov.
We've all talked about kkoma already. How many of you even know who the fuck BanBazi is?
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Loco brings that korean team house mindset to the TSM house. if TSM uses it, correctly, and actually does analysis and things of that nature as a team, I feel like loco is a fine addition. It's all on if he can get the team to listen to him, and if the team is willing to put in the work to not be shitlords, because right now TSM are going to get relegated.
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United States37500 Posts
On June 09 2014 17:00 Cixah wrote:
Loco brings that korean team house mindset to the TSM house. if TSM uses it, correctly, and actually does analysis and things of that nature as a team, I feel like loco is a fine addition. It's all on if he can get the team to listen to him, and if the team is willing to put in the work to not be shitlords, because right now TSM are going to get relegated.
I definitely believe this is the crux of TSM's problem. Loco might not be kkoma but he still has plenty to offer TSM. It's up to the TSM players themselves whether or not they take Loco's advice to heart.
I still feel like many western teams still suffer from the stubbornness and ego that hold good teams back from being better (not even going to mention 'great').
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Locodoco basically taught me how to play this game, I trust in his ability as an analyst
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can you really expect people who play or watch this game to even understand the concept of what a coach really is meant to do?
It's mostly uneducated teenagers/young adults and unfortunately the same type of people plague the management of these pro teams. The fact that managers and players think that it is important that they play the game at the same level as them is fucking idiotic. It's no surprise Korea is so far ahead, if they thought the way some of these unintelligent dumbfucks in NA and EU did then they would expect only people like NaDa and Boxer to be coaches, and even then they wouldn't let them coach League teams because they aren't challenger level players XDDDDDDDD.
I really hope the management levels of these teams in the western scene are completely eradicated and a proper system is set in place. I recall watching a summoner insight episode where Froggen admitted he wouldn't want a coach who is below Diamond 1 on his team. Hearing something like that just blows my mind at how stupid some of these kids are and how pathetic the management is that they allow them to get away with that type of mentality.
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On June 09 2014 16:29 739 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 15:38 GolemMadness wrote:On June 09 2014 14:21 Sufficiency wrote:
It is not ridiculous at all. If you have not done anything to be successful yourself (in any capacity), how do you lead other people to success? Are you serious...? How many current coaches had successful playing careers? How many of the top sports coaches in the world didn't even make it to the major leagues when they were players? This. Totally this. Coaching skills is not the same as being succesfull as a player and you can find shitload of examples in different sports/leagues etc.
Then how come that more than 30% of Soccer coaches have a professional Player Background, while Overall in the Population less than 1% have a professional Player Background.
Your whole Argument is a Farce.
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I think the vast majority of successful coaches in sports, or coaches in general never won anything as a player.
I shall now quote Aristotle.
"The best teacher is not he knows the most but he whose students know the most." I think that's pretty fitting.
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On June 09 2014 18:03 TigerKarl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 16:29 739 wrote:On June 09 2014 15:38 GolemMadness wrote:On June 09 2014 14:21 Sufficiency wrote:
It is not ridiculous at all. If you have not done anything to be successful yourself (in any capacity), how do you lead other people to success? Are you serious...? How many current coaches had successful playing careers? How many of the top sports coaches in the world didn't even make it to the major leagues when they were players? This. Totally this. Coaching skills is not the same as being succesfull as a player and you can find shitload of examples in different sports/leagues etc. Then how come that more than 30% of Soccer coaches have a professional Player Background, while Overall in the Population less than 1% have a professional Player Background. Your whole Argument is a Farce.
Taken in context of loco's situation, sufficiency was talking about success in pro-play.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On June 09 2014 18:03 TigerKarl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 16:29 739 wrote:On June 09 2014 15:38 GolemMadness wrote:On June 09 2014 14:21 Sufficiency wrote:
It is not ridiculous at all. If you have not done anything to be successful yourself (in any capacity), how do you lead other people to success? Are you serious...? How many current coaches had successful playing careers? How many of the top sports coaches in the world didn't even make it to the major leagues when they were players? This. Totally this. Coaching skills is not the same as being succesfull as a player and you can find shitload of examples in different sports/leagues etc. Then how come that more than 30% of Soccer coaches have a professional Player Background, while Overall in the Population less than 1% have a professional Player Background. Your whole Argument is a Farce.
Well, having a professional background =/= being a world champion actually. And can I know, where did you take those statistics from? I'm very curious to see, which source tells that 30% of football coaches have a professional background.
No idea how can you call it "soccer", come on, it's football.
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EPT
