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Alright, we're going to call it a day with all the Thorin drama, guys. I figured if it was about SI, onGamers, TSM, etc, it had some relevance to League but somehow you guys managed to devolve the discussion into an issue about race of all things.
Enough is enough. Let's move along now.
-NeoIllusions |
On June 09 2014 10:14 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 09:54 Ketara wrote:
So, here's my issue with the proposed Athenes nerf.
I agree that Athenes is just way too stat efficient at the moment. However, I feel like they're going overboard with the nerf. I'm gonna show you some math given what's been proposed about the changes to Athenes and Morello.
Athene + Amplifying Tome = 3035 gold
80 AP
20% CDR
25 MR
10 MP/5
Chalice passive
Athenes passive
Chalice + Morellonomicon = 3080 gold
80 AP
20% CDR
25 MR
17 MP/5
Chalice passive
Morellonomicon passive
So, for equivalent costs, you can basically go Chalice+Morello and get more stats than you can going Athenes, if those are the numbers that end up making it to live. Basically if you assume that 7 MP/5 is worth the Athenes passive, you're getting identical stats and the Morello grievous wounds passive costs you 45g.
Not only that but Chalice+Morello has a better buildup for many mana hungry champions than Athenes does, since it allows you to go Chalice into Forbidden Idol.
So, while I can understand the intent of the changes, I feel like it's going a bit too far. Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 23:58 Ketara wrote:
Also re: Scips comment.
Couldn't the PBE thread and a balance discussion thread be the same thread? Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 00:37 Ketara wrote:
I mean technically he was talking about stuff that's not in the game yet, so technically the PBE thread is already where it belonged.
Is GD talking about anything else right now?
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On June 09 2014 10:24 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 10:14 Scip wrote:On June 09 2014 09:54 Ketara wrote:
So, here's my issue with the proposed Athenes nerf.
I agree that Athenes is just way too stat efficient at the moment. However, I feel like they're going overboard with the nerf. I'm gonna show you some math given what's been proposed about the changes to Athenes and Morello.
Athene + Amplifying Tome = 3035 gold
80 AP
20% CDR
25 MR
10 MP/5
Chalice passive
Athenes passive
Chalice + Morellonomicon = 3080 gold
80 AP
20% CDR
25 MR
17 MP/5
Chalice passive
Morellonomicon passive
So, for equivalent costs, you can basically go Chalice+Morello and get more stats than you can going Athenes, if those are the numbers that end up making it to live. Basically if you assume that 7 MP/5 is worth the Athenes passive, you're getting identical stats and the Morello grievous wounds passive costs you 45g.
Not only that but Chalice+Morello has a better buildup for many mana hungry champions than Athenes does, since it allows you to go Chalice into Forbidden Idol.
So, while I can understand the intent of the changes, I feel like it's going a bit too far. On June 05 2014 23:58 Ketara wrote:
Also re: Scips comment.
Couldn't the PBE thread and a balance discussion thread be the same thread? On June 06 2014 00:37 Ketara wrote:
I mean technically he was talking about stuff that's not in the game yet, so technically the PBE thread is already where it belonged.
Is GD talking about anything else right now?
Champion winrates and how they reflect on the status of a champion while considering the competitive/casual play and how that interacts.
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I'm glad kha is being put in the ground. I'm sick and tired of people playing full damage melle junglers and wondering why they don't matter in games past 30 minutes.
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are u implying that kha was bad late game?
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Kha was only ok late game, and that had more-so to deal with 6 item champs being able to focus burst a non-tanky/bruiser Kha. Once Kha got his main 3 items (Lizard, Bruta/BC, LW) and went for tanky items (usually Randuin and BV) he could leap in, take a couple hits, pop Randuin's active, then get a reset and leap out or onto the next carry.
Yes, he eventually hit his power ceiling, but that was so far down the road that unless games went full 6 items it probably didn't matter much.
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depends on what version of Kha we are talking about here, he's been fotm Jungle for like 6 months now
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So I've been trying out the Frozen Heart + Warmogs combination (Specifically on Darius) and I have to say it feels pretty good.
I'm liking the mana and the cooldown reduction that the Frozen Heart gives out.
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On June 09 2014 04:38 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 02:54 Uldridge wrote:On June 09 2014 02:42 Prog wrote:
Usually you will just get harassed until you fall behind in cs. Even if you somehow avoid bad trades (which is difficult) it becomes a farm lane at best, which would be loss for Lulu, because Nami scales better. Support Lulu is pretty bad lategame, especially against non-assassin teams. Obviously she can still work in certain teamcomps, but Nami has more lategame teamfight presence overall. Idk, I think if you're actually not dying as support Lulu you can bring a LOT to the table, the poly lasting for a 2,5 seconds (which is a blind and a silence), the extremely sexy kiting and the shield really can't be underestimated (the shield isn't that strong lategame I'll give you that) And her ult can really make or break a fight. While I do believe a Nami can have a lategame beast ult with the empowered aa's, her heal becomes negligible. I will accept that a 2 or 3 man bubble is game ending lategame though (but howmany times does that actually happen) Lulu's shield is offensive in the lategame, because if gives your AD your passive, which is worth 85+.15(lulu's) AP on-hit. For someone like Lucian, or attack speed based that is a good chunk of increased dps. Frankly i think that maxing shield last is the way to go, you don't get any CD or duration on it, so you're basically playing only on the base shield amount. But the extra time on polymorph will reduce much more damage than the base shield amount, the lower CD on whimsy will make getting around the map faster, allowing you to contribute in more situations.
A little late to this but my logic for support Lulu that I picked up from some streamer and has really worked for me is if the enemy team has a lot of assassins, you max W, otherwise you max shield.
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On June 09 2014 10:58 Frudgey wrote:
So I've been trying out the Frozen Heart + Warmogs combination (Specifically on Darius) and I have to say it feels pretty good.
I'm liking the mana and the cooldown reduction that the Frozen Heart gives out.
think its going to replace omen for mana based bruisers after the nerf
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it was sorta implied. Summoning Insight. Loco mentioned working with an NA team. TSM and EG only team that I know of that doesn't have support staff, and have the money to afford one.
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On June 09 2014 04:01 TheYango wrote:
Also, regarding the discussion of blue/purple imbalance a while back--the fact that the perspective issue seems to be the major cause of blue side imbalance is interesting, largely because this should affect DotA as well, but is circumvented in large part due to how the map features fundamentally favor the Dire side (e.g. safer off-lane, easier jungle layout, better control over Roshan).
This can't even necessarily be attributed to a conscious design choice by any one developer, as many of these elements far predate the well-known developers of the DotA Allstars map. Rather, it's more likely that earlier on in War3's history, when there were many developers and many versions of the DotA map, people probably realized that the ones with these map features (which they probably didn't even attribute to Scourge side advantage given the general weaker understanding of the game at that point) were more balanced than the versions that had more symmetrical map layouts.
I would have expected Guinsoo to recognize this fact when he started on LoL given his history as a developer for the DotA map. But somehow he went along with making the map perfectly symmetrical despite the fact that he should have known that a symmetrical map layout is not going to be inherently balanced.
In most of the early AoS maps, each side had separate rosters, which allowed the mapmaker to tinker with the balance of each side directly. Even Allstars started this way--you can see the legacy in the Radiant/Dire roster labels. There were also several that had vastly different layouts--some straight vertical, some straight horizontal, some nonlinear. In short, there were enough factors in place that even if one could notice a side imbalance (very rare), it was almost certainly not going to be attributed to camera angle.
But I think in general you're giving map developers too much credit. I played a LOT of AoSs of flavors various back then, and the single most important factor for which survived was that Blizzard released four or five patches that killed most custom maps from previous patches unless someone went in and changed a few lines of code. The simplest one that I can remember changed a handful of spells into stun-based spells and set the default duration to "zero", which was interpreted as "infinite" on most maps. Most of the maps, particularly of the AoS variety, were under some kind of encryption. If no one was actively working on them when a death patch hit, they basically just disappeared forever.
By the time Allstars was being taken more seriously than pub games, I think the entire map layout was pretty much in place, although I'm not 100% sure as the group I was with was pretty down on Allstars. It was by far the easiest map to find games with, but we largely considered it the worst-balanced and least-fun (pre-Guinsoo to early-mid-Guinsoo era) of the bunch. We were good enough to bash pubs, but realistically, people hadn't even invented last-hitting and denying at that point, so there wasn't a whole lot of strategic understanding; I have no idea how accurate our balance-assessment was.
I can also tell you that there was very little respect for Guinsoo among the WC3 developers. I don't know how much of that was real, how much was because he was kind of a prick, how much was sour grapes because his map was popular, and how much was the echo chamber effect. I don't know enough to draw my own conclusions, but I don't think it would have surprised most of the better editors I knew that Guinsoo did not have the foresight to avoid balance-through-symmetry.
Unrelated, I was under the impression that Radiant offlane was much safer on the current version.
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On June 09 2014 11:41 OhTwoMise wrote:
The simplest one that I can remember changed a handful of spells into stun-based spells and set the default duration to "zero", which was interpreted as "infinite" on most maps. Most of the maps, particularly of the AoS variety, were under some kind of encryption. If no one was actively working on them when a death patch hit, they basically just disappeared forever.
the some kind of encryption was really simple, you uploaded a a blank .txt file into the map and then deleted it. no one has that .txt file, so no one can load the map.
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United States47024 Posts
But I think in general you're giving map developers too much credit.
How? I explicitly say that this can't really be credited to anyone. I'm not saying anyone EVER made a conscious decision to design the map this way or consciously noticed that the perspective issue contributed to Sentinel/Scourge imbalance--but rather that, with thousands of people playing hundreds of maps, there will be a subconscious trend toward more balanced map designs, regardless of whether or not people have any conscious understanding of why those map designs are more balanced.
Without this, there would never be any reason for a non-mirrored map to exist. The only reason you'd create a non-mirrored map is because it felt like it made the map better, and the only reason you'd like a non-mirrorored map is because it felt better to play. Again, this doesn't mean that anyone has a conscious understanding of what makes the non-mirrored map better, but rather that with such a large map pool evolving over time, certain map features that make the game better will be selected for favorably.
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I seriously doubt loco will be even remotely a good coach.
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On June 09 2014 12:54 Sufficiency wrote:I seriously doubt loco will be even remotely a good coach.
Better than your statistical analysis.
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On June 09 2014 12:59 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 12:54 Sufficiency wrote:I seriously doubt loco will be even remotely a good coach. Better than your statistical analysis.
League of Burn Centers.
Also, anyone know how to play the Blitz into thresh matchup?
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On June 09 2014 12:59 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 12:54 Sufficiency wrote:I seriously doubt loco will be even remotely a good coach. Better than your statistical analysis.
Well, this is the only sort of things you can talk about anyway.
Feel free to fill Cheep's shoes.
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how can locodoco be a coach? he doesnt exactly command respect or come across as an authority figure. that might be one of the most miscast hires ive ever seen. Color commentator? Maybe. Streamer? Absolutely. Coach?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YcSF7aM.jpg)
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On June 09 2014 13:41 VayneAuthority wrote:how can locodoco be a coach? he doesnt exactly command respect or come across as an authority figure. that might be one of the most miscast hires ive ever seen. Color commentator? Maybe. Streamer? Absolutely. Coach?
Exactly. This guy has never achieved anything in Korea or in NA.
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EPT
