EPT[Patch 4.9] RIP Kha'Zix General Discussion - Page 55
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Alright, we're going to call it a day with all the Thorin drama, guys. I figured if it was about SI, onGamers, TSM, etc, it had some relevance to League but somehow you guys managed to devolve the discussion into an issue about race of all things. Enough is enough. Let's move along now. -NeoIllusions | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
LeBlanc is a shitty champion in soloQ too. Don't get me wrong, she is great in competitive play, but the numbers suggest she wins ~45% of the time in all league tiers. That's really, really bad. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
low winrates on champs like zed and leblanc might indicate people just watching pros jump around and making plays and then try to play that champ. hard execution+pros making flashy plays probably a bad combo. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On June 09 2014 08:44 Gahlo wrote: The point was that a high winrate in soloq is a shitty metric. Please, rub 2 neurons together. On the contrary, it is a fantastic metric because there is so much data for it. If Zed is played thousands of times every day and only wins 46% of the time (from Gold to Diamond), there is something fundamentally wrong with this champion in soloQ. It doesn't tell us what is wrong exactly, but if you pick that champion and it brings down the team's win rate down 4%, that is a huge effect. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On June 09 2014 09:02 Slayer91 wrote: lol everyone used to say leblanc was a solo q noob stomper and not viable in competitive low winrates on champs like zed and leblanc might indicate people just watching pros jump around and making plays and then try to play that champ. hard execution+pros making flashy plays probably a bad combo. LB became popular when her was changed so that she wasn't a "Need to get 7 kills because I ain't getting any gold from farm" champion. "Build Grail, max W, farm all the waves, still 100-0 people because ratios." put her into competitive. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On June 09 2014 09:00 Sufficiency wrote: LeBlanc is a shitty champion in soloQ too. Don't get me wrong, she is great in competitive play, but the numbers suggest she wins ~45% of the time in all league tiers. That's really, really bad. So then I guess Amumu is the best solo queue jungler, Fiora is the best top laner, and Heimerdinger, Malzahar and Swain are all top 5 mid laners. Because the numbers suggest that they win more than other champions. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On June 09 2014 09:02 Slayer91 wrote: lol everyone used to say leblanc was a solo q noob stomper and not viable in competitive low winrates on champs like zed and leblanc might indicate people just watching pros jump around and making plays and then try to play that champ. hard execution+pros making flashy plays probably a bad combo. This is fair criticism. The win rate suggests a certain champion is underperforming in soloQ, but does not suggest WHY the underperformance occur. Hence we can argue that the low win rate is due to pro wannabes. However, there are two things I want to point out: 1. LeBlanc actually has quite a bit of popularity; this cannot be sustained by each player playing her just 1-2 times then toss her away. There ARE many dedicated LeBlanc players on all levels of soloQ play. 2. It demonstrates that LeBlanc requires significant effort and practice to play well, due to her extremely high skill ceiling that most players cannot achieve. So instead of spending 200 hours practicing her, I can just play a different champion which requires only 20 hours to play well. I want to win, but this is still just a game and I don't feel like intentionally handicapping myself. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On June 09 2014 09:14 GolemMadness wrote: So then I guess Amumu is the best solo queue jungler, Fiora is the best top laner, and Heimerdinger, Malzahar and Swain are all top 5 mid laners. Because the numbers suggest that they win more than other champions. When did I say good soloQ champion -> good competitive champion? And when did I say good competitive champion -> good soloQ champion? Please. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 09 2014 09:02 Slayer91 wrote: lol everyone used to say leblanc was a solo q noob stomper and not viable in competitive low winrates on champs like zed and leblanc might indicate people just watching pros jump around and making plays and then try to play that champ. hard execution+pros making flashy plays probably a bad combo. Man, its almost like that Leblanc was a different champion  For LB that might be true, but for Zed, he isn't even that good in Pro play anymore, and when he was at least half his "power" so to speak, was tied up in being an almost impossible to stop splitpusher in 3-1-1 comps (out of favor for pros, and never good in SoloQ). | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Champions that are not played often are likely to only be brought out by people who know what they're doing on them, and as specific lane counterpicks, which would inflate their win rate. Conversly, champions that are extremely popular are probably often played by people who don't know how to play that particular champion, etc. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On June 09 2014 09:19 Sufficiency wrote: When did I say good soloQ champion -> good competitive champion? And when did I say good competitive champion -> good soloQ champion? Please. When did I mention competitive play...? I specifically said best solo queue. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On June 09 2014 09:19 Sufficiency wrote: When did I say good soloQ champion -> good competitive champion? And when did I say good competitive champion -> good soloQ champion? Please. whats your definition of "good solo q champion" because winratres dont necessarily mean too much. Solid picks who aren't played except by people who play them a lot tend to have much higher winrates. semi popular but not "OP" picks you'd expect low winrates because they are played a lot but arent that good unless you play them well, think ezrael having a low winrate for ages despite being really popualr, i think lucian is similar now. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
like you see LB getting picked in silver and bronze over ziggs and it's just like, yeaaaa | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On June 09 2014 08:56 SagaZ wrote: I think ryanchoi maxes Q first on talon and leaves rake at 1 point. I do that too, but you have to snowball or rely on your team a bit more because you can't catch up in farm easily with rake, though you take towers out really fast a lot of fun too. you do so much damage with an amplified Q with your passive applied | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
Tiamat > Mobos > Bruta > LW > ga > hydra > bc iirc I actually haven't seen him in a long time | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I agree that Athenes is just way too stat efficient at the moment. However, I feel like they're going overboard with the nerf. I'm gonna show you some math given what's been proposed about the changes to Athenes and Morello. Athene + Amplifying Tome = 3035 gold 80 AP 20% CDR 25 MR 10 MP/5 Chalice passive Athenes passive Chalice + Morellonomicon = 3080 gold 80 AP 20% CDR 25 MR 17 MP/5 Chalice passive Morellonomicon passive So, for equivalent costs, you can basically go Chalice+Morello and get more stats than you can going Athenes, if those are the numbers that end up making it to live. Basically if you assume that 7 MP/5 is worth the Athenes passive, you're getting identical stats and the Morello grievous wounds passive costs you 45g. Not only that but Chalice+Morello has a better buildup for many mana hungry champions than Athenes does, since it allows you to go Chalice into Forbidden Idol. So, while I can understand the intent of the changes, I feel like it's going a bit too far. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On June 09 2014 09:45 Slusher wrote: Insoy the (former) challenger 1 trick pony Talon player always went Q first as well. Tiamat > Mobos > Bruta > LW > ga > hydra > bc iirc I actually haven't seen him in a long time i just plyaed with him today, he's low diamond 1 | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
Like what is their vision for this item, mine is, this is a farming item that gives you sustain, but 0 damage/kill potential, nerf the ap growth on combine and see how that goes for a patch, I think it might be just right. however it seems like their vision for it is different (and I'm not sure wtf it is) | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On June 09 2014 09:54 Ketara wrote: So, here's my issue with the proposed Athenes nerf. I agree that Athenes is just way too stat efficient at the moment. However, I feel like they're going overboard with the nerf. I'm gonna show you some math given what's been proposed about the changes to Athenes and Morello. Athene + Amplifying Tome = 3035 gold 80 AP 20% CDR 25 MR 10 MP/5 Chalice passive Athenes passive Chalice + Morellonomicon = 3080 gold 80 AP 20% CDR 25 MR 17 MP/5 Chalice passive Morellonomicon passive So, for equivalent costs, you can basically go Chalice+Morello and get more stats than you can going Athenes, if those are the numbers that end up making it to live. Basically if you assume that 7 MP/5 is worth the Athenes passive, you're getting identical stats and the Morello grievous wounds passive costs you 45g. Not only that but Chalice+Morello has a better buildup for many mana hungry champions than Athenes does, since it allows you to go Chalice into Forbidden Idol. So, while I can understand the intent of the changes, I feel like it's going a bit too far. On June 05 2014 23:58 Ketara wrote: Also re: Scips comment. Couldn't the PBE thread and a balance discussion thread be the same thread? On June 06 2014 00:37 Ketara wrote: I mean technically he was talking about stuff that's not in the game yet, so technically the PBE thread is already where it belonged. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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