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Alright, we're going to call it a day with all the Thorin drama, guys. I figured if it was about SI, onGamers, TSM, etc, it had some relevance to League but somehow you guys managed to devolve the discussion into an issue about race of all things.
Enough is enough. Let's move along now.
-NeoIllusions |
On June 09 2014 02:42 Prog wrote:
Usually you will just get harassed until you fall behind in cs. Even if you somehow avoid bad trades (which is difficult) it becomes a farm lane at best, which would be loss for Lulu, because Nami scales better. Support Lulu is pretty bad lategame, especially against non-assassin teams. Obviously she can still work in certain teamcomps, but Nami has more lategame teamfight presence overall.
Idk, I think if you're actually not dying as support Lulu you can bring a LOT to the table, the poly lasting for a 2,5 seconds (which is a blind and a silence), the extremely sexy kiting and the shield really can't be underestimated (the shield isn't that strong lategame I'll give you that)
And her ult can really make or break a fight.
While I do believe a Nami can have a lategame beast ult with the empowered aa's, her heal becomes negligible. I will accept that a 2 or 3 man bubble is game ending lategame though (but howmany times does that actually happen)
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wow it seems like brazil really wants to go to worlds, I havent seen that champions cup commercial since worlds.
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On June 09 2014 02:26 Prog wrote:
Lulu loses to Nami regardless of adc, even though picking Vayne pretty much says "I want to lose lane even harder". Lulu is just bad against defensive, sustain supports.
Eh, the defensive nature I don't mind. It's more the fact that with how bad Q is by itself (in the sense that between it's low speed and Lulu's long windup it's easy to see coming and dodge), Lulu really relies on being able to E people first (and possibly chasing for autos after the Q).
Nami beats the 650 range (is her W really 725 range? I thought it was like 650, but 725 range for the bounces, hence why she self-casts for safety sometimes), if only because Lulu has long animations whereas Nami can cast while moving. You also can't really fish for autos even after a Q because your shitty auto animation means even with backswing cancelling she's way easier to land a bubble on when harassing than, say, Zyra or Sona.
Add to this that Nami starts spellthief's edge for bonus damage (I don't do it on Lulu, I tend to start dshield, ruby or very rarely coin depending on match-ups) and trying to EQ her just to eat an empowered W to the face makes you feel pretty powerless. No fun allowed. 
I disagree with you that support Lulu scales badly into the lategame, though. W is a pretty good cc on a decent cooldown (I used to max it 2nd and rush 35% CDR so I may be biased though, level 1 W's prob a lot harder to work with), a decent shield, a spammable and powerful ranged AoE slow, and her ult.
Her ult makes her pretty good against burst, while her Q punishes low-mobility champions pretty hard (I really like having her against Nasus for example) for kiting. Considering LeBlanc's popularity, the ability to W her as she goes in with Distorsion is pretty good for allowing catches too.
On the other hand she does suck pretty hard against stuff like Ziggs or Nidalee because she has no ways of punishing at range. And while she can beat Leona with enough harass at early levels, unless there are very early kills the first back means Leona's level 4+ and you can't try to lower her HP before she's able to go in anymore, so it's a lane that can be swingy if you fuck up or don't put them behind early.
And yes, Vayne still seems like the champion that attracts the most "they have a really shitty match-up for it, let's last pick it", gets me facepalming. I'm not sure there are many "good" lanes for Vayne+Lulu on top of that. We can snowball hard if the enemy misplays because I'm very aggressive, but that's the opponent being bad, not our duo being inherently good (in that game Lucian was bad and they let me shove so I got Vayne to pretty much free farm, till she decided to go in while lower on HP and suicide, getting me killed with it... Tumble forward with Aqua Prison off cd too stronk).
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Last post before I save 5k. Dota patches are a lot more active in buffing underused stuff in comparison to riot from what I've seen, and I honestly like that a lot more. many lol picks become Fotm because their counters get nerfed out of existence, or more commonly are newly introduced and they simply outclass existing picks. Where are the buffs to say lissandra or Olaf. Try to introduce them as niche picks, even if they aren't better than the Fotm picks, they could still be viable in the right comp. League right now suffers immensely from a lack of diversity at the competitive level, which is simply made worse by riots boneheaded approach to the pick ban phase.
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I still think lack of pick diversity is in part due to the way pick/ban phase works atm.
If Riot simply just buffs weak stuff and nerf strong stuff (the way Icefrog does it for Dota), all that would happen due to the way pick/ban works is teams would just ban out the op and pick the new top tier stuff. IE, if Irelia gets incrementally buffed and Shyvana gets incrementally nerfed, at some point Irelia will become fotm always picked, while Shyvana becomes more rare.
Unless pick/ban gets changed, you're never going to see super niche champs being played since it's too easy for teams to counter pick them. Dota suffered a similar patch of time where picks were very stale prior to Dota 2's release. After the pick/ban phase was changed up, pick diversity increased. Granted, you could argue that Icefrog got better at balancing, but I don't think that's the whole story.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
There are few things riot have more stubbornly drawn a line in the sand over than the pick/ban phase though. They seem to firmly believe that expanding the pick/ban phase will make wins less dependant on individual skill and overall detracting from the actual ingame experience.
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On June 09 2014 03:27 Ryuu314 wrote:
I still think lack of pick diversity is in part due to the way pick/ban phase works atm.
If Riot simply just buffs weak stuff and nerf strong stuff (the way Icefrog does it for Dota), all that would happen due to the way pick/ban works is teams would just ban out the op and pick the new top tier stuff. IE, if Irelia gets incrementally buffed and Shyvana gets incrementally nerfed, at some point Irelia will become fotm always picked, while Shyvana becomes more rare.
Unless pick/ban gets changed, you're never going to see super niche champs being played since it's too easy for teams to counter pick them. Dota suffered a similar patch of time where picks were very stale prior to Dota 2's release. After the pick/ban phase was changed up, pick diversity increased. Granted, you could argue that Icefrog got better at balancing, but I don't think that's the whole story.
Isn't one of the major critiques of riot that there is a lack of niche picks? In that scenario its likely that shyvana is not niche, instead she simply drops out of competitive play once pros realize her weakness and adopt new comfort picks.
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god that masters final intro video is so hilarious, like they're trying to make the players look all hard and shit but they're just really skinny nerds when it comes down to it. What an amazing video
Acorn and Spirit though, yummy
LOL just realized when it goes "only god can judge me now" it cuts to faker.
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I am pretty staunchly in favor of every decision Riot makes over DotA as a general rule, but I still think that the DotA pick/ban format is a lot better. And I still don't understand the logic behind Riots argument against it.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 09 2014 03:45 Ketara wrote:
I am pretty staunchly in favor of every decision Riot makes over DotA as a general rule, but I still think that the DotA pick/ban format is a lot better. And I still don't understand the logic behind Riots argument against it.
Detection rules?
I don't see League's detection rules (detection follows vision rather than applying over vision blockers/obstacles) as having any inherent advantage and only serving to confuse anyone who's ever played a Blizzard RTS.
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On June 09 2014 02:03 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2014 04:23 Kinie wrote:
So what is everyone's "pocket pick" when it comes to solo Q? The champion that you try to go to if you get forced into a specific role, no matter how good/bad they might be currently? Here's my list:
Top: Riven
Jungle: Vi
Mid: Ziggs
ADC: Ezreal
Support: Leona Top: Gangplank Jungle: Fizz Mid: Orianna/Fizz ADC: Miss Fortune Support: Nami
Top: Zac / Voli
Jungle: Wukong
Mid: Annie / Ziggs
ADC: Dodge  Cait / ez
Support: Leona/annie/morg
Hard to narrow it down to one specific pick in alot of cases because you gotta judge the draft :| But wukong works all teh time baby most played champ this season by far
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On June 09 2014 03:51 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 02:03 Nemireck wrote:On June 08 2014 04:23 Kinie wrote:
So what is everyone's "pocket pick" when it comes to solo Q? The champion that you try to go to if you get forced into a specific role, no matter how good/bad they might be currently? Here's my list:
Top: Riven
Jungle: Vi
Mid: Ziggs
ADC: Ezreal
Support: Leona Top: Gangplank Jungle: Fizz Mid: Orianna/Fizz ADC: Miss Fortune Support: Nami Top: Zac / Voli Jungle: Wukong Mid: Annie / Ziggs ADC: Dodge Cait / ez Support: Leona/annie/morg Hard to narrow it down to one specific pick in alot of cases because you gotta judge the draft :|
Top: Ryze/Renekton
Jungle: Ammumu/Pantheon
Mid: TF/Leblanc
ADC: Lucian/Caitlyn
Support: Thresh/Morgana/Sona
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
On June 09 2014 03:51 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 02:03 Nemireck wrote:On June 08 2014 04:23 Kinie wrote:
So what is everyone's "pocket pick" when it comes to solo Q? The champion that you try to go to if you get forced into a specific role, no matter how good/bad they might be currently? Here's my list:
Top: Riven
Jungle: Vi
Mid: Ziggs
ADC: Ezreal
Support: Leona Top: Gangplank Jungle: Fizz Mid: Orianna/Fizz ADC: Miss Fortune Support: Nami Top: Zac / Voli Jungle: Wukong Mid: Annie / Ziggs ADC: Dodge Cait / ez Support: Leona/annie/morg Hard to narrow it down to one specific pick in alot of cases because you gotta judge the draft :| But wukong works all teh time baby most played champ this season by far
Top : I don't really play top but if I have to : Jax if not banned / Shyvana
Mid : Ziggs
ADC : Lucian
Support : Xerath/Blitzcrank/Braum
Jungle : Diana/Heca/Lee
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If Riot are that afraid of pubs not liking a new draft format, while wanting to keep competitive and pub format the same, why not create a "tournament draft" style, use it competitively, and give a ranked queue that uses this format, along with the current draft ranked format?
This way the people who want to use the same format as the pros can, while those who don't want to spend 8+ minutes drafting can stay on the current one.
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United States47024 Posts
Also, regarding the discussion of blue/purple imbalance a while back--the fact that the perspective issue seems to be the major cause of blue side imbalance is interesting, largely because this should affect DotA as well, but is circumvented in large part due to how the map features fundamentally favor the Dire side (e.g. safer off-lane, easier jungle layout, better control over Roshan).
This can't even necessarily be attributed to a conscious design choice by any one developer, as many of these elements far predate the well-known developers of the DotA Allstars map. Rather, it's more likely that earlier on in War3's history, when there were many developers and many versions of the DotA map, people probably realized that the ones with these map features (which they probably didn't even attribute to Scourge side advantage given the general weaker understanding of the game at that point) were more balanced than the versions that had more symmetrical map layouts.
I would have expected Guinsoo to recognize this fact when he started on LoL given his history as a developer for the DotA map. But somehow he went along with making the map perfectly symmetrical despite the fact that he should have known that a symmetrical map layout is not going to be inherently balanced.
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On June 09 2014 03:56 739 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 03:51 Capped wrote:On June 09 2014 02:03 Nemireck wrote:On June 08 2014 04:23 Kinie wrote:
So what is everyone's "pocket pick" when it comes to solo Q? The champion that you try to go to if you get forced into a specific role, no matter how good/bad they might be currently? Here's my list:
Top: Riven
Jungle: Vi
Mid: Ziggs
ADC: Ezreal
Support: Leona Top: Gangplank Jungle: Fizz Mid: Orianna/Fizz ADC: Miss Fortune Support: Nami Top: Zac / Voli Jungle: Wukong Mid: Annie / Ziggs ADC: Dodge Cait / ez Support: Leona/annie/morg Hard to narrow it down to one specific pick in alot of cases because you gotta judge the draft :| But wukong works all teh time baby most played champ this season by far Top : I don't really play top but if I have to : Jax if not banned / Shyvana Mid : Ziggs ADC : Lucian Support : Xerath/Blitzcrank/Braum Jungle : Diana/Heca/Lee
Top: Renekton
Jungle: Vi
Mid: Morg or Annie
ADC: Graves
Support: Zyra or Taric
My picks outside Top and Jungle are a little bit goofy, been raged at for Taric before. Oh well.
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
On June 09 2014 03:51 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 02:03 Nemireck wrote:On June 08 2014 04:23 Kinie wrote:
So what is everyone's "pocket pick" when it comes to solo Q? The champion that you try to go to if you get forced into a specific role, no matter how good/bad they might be currently? Here's my list:
Top: Riven
Jungle: Vi
Mid: Ziggs
ADC: Ezreal
Support: Leona Top: Gangplank Jungle: Fizz Mid: Orianna/Fizz ADC: Miss Fortune Support: Nami Top: Zac / Voli Jungle: Wukong Mid: Annie / Ziggs ADC: Dodge Cait / ez Support: Leona/annie/morg Hard to narrow it down to one specific pick in alot of cases because you gotta judge the draft :| But wukong works all teh time baby most played champ this season by far
Top : I don't really play top but if I have to : Jax if not banned / Shyvana
Mid : Ziggs
ADC : Lucian
Support : Xerath/Blitzcrank/Braum
Jungle : Diana/Heca/Lee
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On June 09 2014 04:01 TheYango wrote:
Also, regarding the discussion of blue/purple imbalance a while back--the fact that the perspective issue seems to be the major cause of blue side imbalance is interesting, largely because this should affect DotA as well, but is circumvented in large part due to how the map features fundamentally favor the Dire side (e.g. safer off-lane, easier jungle layout, better control over Roshan).
This can't even necessarily be attributed to a conscious design choice by any one developer, as many of these elements far predate the well-known developers of the DotA Allstars map. Rather, it's more likely that earlier on in War3's history, when there were many developers and many versions of the DotA map, people probably realized that the ones with these map features (which they probably didn't even attribute to Scourge side advantage given the general weaker understanding of the game at that point) were more balanced than the versions that had more symmetrical map layouts.
I would have expected Guinsoo to recognize this fact when he started on LoL given his history as a developer for the DotA map. But somehow he went along with making the map perfectly symmetrical despite the fact that he should have known that a symmetrical map layout is not going to be inherently balanced.
In the stuff about the updated summoners rift they said they're actually going to rotate the camera angle slightly because of gameplay concerns. I wonder if that's meant to address the blue side issue.
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United States47024 Posts
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On June 09 2014 02:54 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 02:42 Prog wrote:
Usually you will just get harassed until you fall behind in cs. Even if you somehow avoid bad trades (which is difficult) it becomes a farm lane at best, which would be loss for Lulu, because Nami scales better. Support Lulu is pretty bad lategame, especially against non-assassin teams. Obviously she can still work in certain teamcomps, but Nami has more lategame teamfight presence overall. Idk, I think if you're actually not dying as support Lulu you can bring a LOT to the table, the poly lasting for a 2,5 seconds (which is a blind and a silence), the extremely sexy kiting and the shield really can't be underestimated (the shield isn't that strong lategame I'll give you that) And her ult can really make or break a fight. While I do believe a Nami can have a lategame beast ult with the empowered aa's, her heal becomes negligible. I will accept that a 2 or 3 man bubble is game ending lategame though (but howmany times does that actually happen)
Lulu's shield is offensive in the lategame, because if gives your AD your passive, which is worth 85+.15(lulu's) AP on-hit. For someone like Lucian, or attack speed based that is a good chunk of increased dps.
Frankly i think that maxing shield last is the way to go, you don't get any CD or duration on it, so you're basically playing only on the base shield amount. But the extra time on polymorph will reduce much more damage than the base shield amount, the lower CD on whimsy will make getting around the map faster, allowing you to contribute in more situations.
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EPT
