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On May 27 2014 03:58 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 03:48 Goumindong wrote:On May 27 2014 03:31 johnybravo22 wrote:
u are still missing the point that he isnt just regular assassin like zed or fizz, he has also stealth which is broken in current form, its a toxic (i hate that word but have to use it here ) combo of stealth and 1shot mechanic with no counterplay same reason why eve got changed 100x times before she became a tank, rengar rework was supposed to fix it but failed thats why people are angry
also 4x doran blade is terrible, he paid 1720g for 24dmg and 240hp for that amount i can almost get 3 long swords and 2 rubys with with a lot better combined stats which build into samething even more cost efficent 32 damage and 320 HP for 1760g. Decent efficient in terms of raw power (plus 20 hp/hit which isn't inconsequential) but not so much so compared to 1720 gold of other items that we should say "well of course he won because he bought Doran's Blades" because it belays the question of "why don't other champions just get 4 doran's blades and wreck with them if they're that efficient". The difference between 4 Dorans and say Giant's Belt and Pickaxe (25 AD, 380 HP for 1875 gold) isn't all that much, its a whopping 7 AD and -60 HP. The answer of course, is "Rango is bonkers". I mean, Twitch is a level up here, so he has an extra 3 AD, 3 armor, and 81 HP of "free stats" compared to Rengar, nearly a Doran's Blade right there. Maybe the difference is that, i think that twitch ought to come out ahead in that 1v1 right there? That for some reason an AD who is up a level, 50 CS, 3 kills, and completed items ought to beat a melee assassin? There are plenty of champions that straight up lose in 1v1 despite being tons of gold worth of item ahead, the difference is different champions accomplish different things at different points in time. If every single champion had the same exact homogenized powercurve that riot dreamed they could have, then yes, Twitch should have won that duel. But, holy shit, the game would be so fucking pointless with no powercurves.
There are plenty of champions which straight lose 1v1 with no counterplay despite being 2000 gold* and a level, and a large relative HP advantage ahead? No, i don't think there are that many champions who have that kind of interaction. Nor does this interaction exist against a class of champions rather than a single champion.
*Vasili had over twice the amount of gold that Rengar did. Rengar had spent 1760 (4 dblades), Twitch had spent 4540 gold (Berserker's Greaves [900], Doran's Blade[440], Blade of the Ruined King [3200])
Edit: I mean Veigar can kind of do this against AP champions (who don't haven't bought a Negatron or QSS) with a full combo and DFG. But he has to have DFG and get his full combo off and the enemy can't have any shielding of any kind. Ideally Veigar needs to be level 10+ to do this since he needs the extra stun duration on his E if the enemy is playing smartly. Additionally avoiding the E is possible even against good Veigars who can land their stun well. But i don't think anyone else can even come close to that level of "sorry you're dead". Especially not without at least some major item timing
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On May 27 2014 04:05 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 03:59 johnybravo22 wrote:On May 27 2014 03:43 wei2coolman wrote:On May 27 2014 03:42 Gahlo wrote:
Anybody know good jungle streams? Looking to broaden my horizon outside of NB3/TOO. English speaking a plus. trick2g. Saint streams quite a bit on azubu now too. On May 27 2014 03:43 turdburgler wrote:
one day people will learn stealth is toxic game mechanic :D one day people will learn to stop QQ about champions that aren't even OP'd. says who ? you ? because there are plenty high elo people saying otherwise and banning rengar, he might not be op but hes definately unfun and unfair to play against even riot thinks that which they tried to fix with their failed rework says 1) not top 10 win rate in daily/weekly/monthly in all regions in diamond/challenger. 2) not top 10 popularity in daily/weekly/monthly in all regions in diamond/challenger 3) not top 10 ban rate EDIT: is 10th ban rate in the past week in NA, not on EU, and overall regions not in top 10. 4) only matchups in top lane in diamond level that rengar has above 50% winrate is Renekton/Shyv/Malphite/Shen/Darius, only 2 of which are considered strong FotM picks. 5) barely seen any pro level pick/ban in his current post-rework. Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 04:03 cLutZ wrote:On May 27 2014 03:43 wei2coolman wrote:On May 27 2014 03:42 Gahlo wrote:
Anybody know good jungle streams? Looking to broaden my horizon outside of NB3/TOO. English speaking a plus. trick2g. Saint streams quite a bit on azubu now too. On May 27 2014 03:43 turdburgler wrote:
one day people will learn stealth is toxic game mechanic :D one day people will learn to stop QQ about champions that aren't even OP'd. I dont see why it matters if Rengar is actually OP, if he is weak, or if he is just dumb like some people in this thread are saying. He is poorly designed, and you have consistently failed to refute that very important fact. If he's not op'd, who cares about design? Design only becomes an issue if it's over bearing on the general populus of the game. Which he clearly isn't.
winrate argument here is completely irrelevant, there were/are plenty of OP champions with winrate similar to current rengar or way lower, hi lb or kass
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On May 27 2014 03:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 03:42 Gahlo wrote:
Anybody know good jungle streams? Looking to broaden my horizon outside of NB3/TOO. English speaking a plus. trick2g. Saint streams quite a bit on azubu now too. Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 03:43 turdburgler wrote:
one day people will learn stealth is toxic game mechanic :D one day people will learn to stop QQ about champions that aren't even OP'd.
its nothing to do with being OP or not. even if the champion was terrible and had to seriously dominate to be able to do it, its still a shitty way for the game to play.
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On May 27 2014 04:14 TheYango wrote:
Invisibility on solo-kill heroes in DotA is largely balanced by those heroes' solo-killing power being heavily dependent on major item timings. Clinkz needs to finish Orchid, Riki needs to finish Diffusal, Bounty Hunter doesn't solo kill things unless he's inhumanly fed. The dynamic between those heroes and the opposing teams is largely one of challenging those item timings which is decidedly similar to many other carries with game changing item timings.
LoL in general makes the first item timing hard to challenge unless you're 2v1ing or crushing him in lane, because it's not always the case that laning breaks fast enough for the team as a whole to challenge the first major item.
How do you challenge these timings? Group up as 5 and try to push objectives or kills before the invis hero gets going?
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On May 27 2014 04:05 wei2coolman wrote:
If he's not op'd, who cares about design? Design only becomes an issue if it's over bearing on the general populus of the game. Which he clearly isn't.
No, design is the FUNDAMENTAL issue. This is because with Rengar, and a select few other champions, there is no set of numbers you can put on their kits that will make them "balanced" over several patches in a row. You need to come up with a compelling theoretical argument in favor of Rengar's kit, because historically it has not been healthy for the game. Either he is weak and the Rengar players cry for buffs, or he is a soloQ terror, or he is ridiculously OP. Those are the states of Rengar. There is no stable period of Rengar, which is the problem.
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On May 27 2014 04:18 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 04:14 TheYango wrote:
Invisibility on solo-kill heroes in DotA is largely balanced by those heroes' solo-killing power being heavily dependent on major item timings. Clinkz needs to finish Orchid, Riki needs to finish Diffusal, Bounty Hunter doesn't solo kill things unless he's inhumanly fed. The dynamic between those heroes and the opposing teams is largely one of challenging those item timings which is decidedly similar to many other carries with game changing item timings.
LoL in general makes the first item timing hard to challenge unless you're 2v1ing or crushing him in lane, because it's not always the case that laning breaks fast enough for the team as a whole to challenge the first major item. How do you challenge these timings? Group up as 5 and try to push objectives or kills before the invis hero gets going?
Various ways you can go about doing it. You can contest the lane as Riki is pretty weak laner and doesn't bring much to a dual/tri lane. Clinkz is a bit of a better laner but is rather squishy so you can proactively gank him. Once you have map control it's pretty easy to keep shutting down there heroes or at least contesting them. If they happen to get these items than you just alter your play as a potential target. Sticking in groups as a support helps as well as always placing detection when you are going for a siege or covering a farmer.
The key is you don't have to group as 5 to deal with these guys. You can if you want to but that either tends to be a choice you are forced to make due to failing earlier or your plan from the start. There're a few simple checklist of things not to do like not being alone in your jungle or farming a lane solo without vision of the enemy. Those actually hold for playing against non-invis heroes too.
Also have to remember that Dota has TP scrolls where as there is no repositioning besides teleport in LoL. Along with the difference in damage output in LoL compared to Dota it makes Solo killing a lot riskier. If you take fractionally too long to kill a support as clinkz by a T2 tower than a counter kill is likely going to happen.
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Also you can contest the timing by sending a couple heroes with smoke of deceit to go gank them. roaming supports are a lot less common in League than in dota though, and no smoke equivalent means you are reliant on scanners removing wards so you can get the gank off, and its really difficult not to see a support gank incoming in league with no tp scrolls or smoke or even not having pulling, so when a support disappears its more obvious.
also it doesn't help that in league ADCs don't build defensive items until very late if ever, so they may have 2-3k more gold but its all in attack speed and damage/lifesteal, nothing to prevent burst.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
If riki/Clinkz/BH don't snowball they are dead weight on your team who are squishy and will just die most of the time. They have no real escapes outside of their invisibility/speed either which makes them vurnable whenever one has detection for them. Due to how teams operate in competitive games with sentries and the ability to play overall more safer invisibility heroes don't have a strong place in competitive Dota(they have their niche sometimes of course, catching a team offguard who hasn't practiced properly against invisibility heroes for a while can be a ''cheese'' strategy).
They also suffer from no ability to flashfarm, so if they fail to snowball they have no way to farm as fast as a ''proper'' carry.
Invisibility heroes have their strengths but they also have their glaring weaknesses. This is counterintuitive to most carries in LoL who have inherent abilities to flashfarm as well as the lack of farm present at any point in LoL compared to Dota(there is more farm in the map in Dota).
So basically get lots of kills/mapcontrol by 20-30 min or lose the game to a proper carry/teamfight.
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http://na.leagueoflegends.com/node/16344
I think this is an excellenity to investigate the blue side advantage (which also happens on the ARAM map).
Gonna make some code changes tonight to preferentially walk to these games and capture as many as I can.
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On May 27 2014 04:50 Kipsate wrote:
If riki/Clinkz/BH don't snowball they are dead weight on your team who are squishy and will just die most of the time. They have no real escapes outside of their invisibility/speed either which makes them vurnable whenever one has detection for them. Due to how teams operate in competitive games with sentries and the ability to play overall more safer invisibility heroes don't have a strong place in competitive Dota(they have their niche sometimes of course, catching a team offguard who hasn't practiced properly against invisibility heroes for a while can be a ''cheese'' strategy).
They also suffer from no ability to flashfarm, so if they fail to snowball they have no way to farm as fast as a ''proper'' carry.
Invisibility heroes have their strengths but they also have their glaring weaknesses. This is counterintuitive to most carries in LoL who have inherent abilities to flashfarm as well as the lack of farm present at any point in LoL compared to Dota(there is more farm in the map in Dota).
So basically get lots of kills/mapcontrol by 20-30 min or lose the game to a proper carry.
AKA Luna/DOOM/LS/Morph/AM (AM is more like 40-50 though.)
Having carries in Dota that have disables/ability to buy items like Linken's or BKB/Butterfly make it harder to instagib them as well, plus the displacement abilities that you get from Manta style/shadow blade/blink dagger. Disables are also a lot stronger in DotA, so you need to take those into account as well.
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all that dota talk makes me want to install and try it :/
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United States23745 Posts
You should try it, Dota is a great game.
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On May 27 2014 05:07 Sufficiency wrote:http://na.leagueoflegends.com/node/16344I think this is an excellenity to investigate the blue side advantage (which also happens on the ARAM map). Gonna make some code changes tonight to preferentially walk to these games and capture as many as I can.
I was just going to say that this game mode will probably have insanely high killcounts.
But uh, yeah that too.
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Oh wtf. Did I make a new word?
I meant excellent opportunity
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On May 27 2014 05:59 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 05:07 Sufficiency wrote:http://na.leagueoflegends.com/node/16344I think this is an excellenity to investigate the blue side advantage (which also happens on the ARAM map). Gonna make some code changes tonight to preferentially walk to these games and capture as many as I can. I was just going to say that this game mode will probably have insanely high killcounts. But uh, yeah that too.
League of Spears.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On May 27 2014 06:07 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 05:59 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 27 2014 05:07 Sufficiency wrote:http://na.leagueoflegends.com/node/16344I think this is an excellenity to investigate the blue side advantage (which also happens on the ARAM map). Gonna make some code changes tonight to preferentially walk to these games and capture as many as I can. I was just going to say that this game mode will probably have insanely high killcounts. But uh, yeah that too. League of Spears.
10 sorakas, the cancer will wipe out humanity
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On May 27 2014 06:12 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 06:07 wei2coolman wrote:On May 27 2014 05:59 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 27 2014 05:07 Sufficiency wrote:http://na.leagueoflegends.com/node/16344I think this is an excellenity to investigate the blue side advantage (which also happens on the ARAM map). Gonna make some code changes tonight to preferentially walk to these games and capture as many as I can. I was just going to say that this game mode will probably have insanely high killcounts. But uh, yeah that too. League of Spears. 10 sorakas, the cancer will wipe out humanity
Cause it's the game that never eeeeeends.
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i copied meteos elise rune page with AS marks but i kinda hate it even tho I win with her a lot, after game summary always shows i did barely and damage to champions, even in games where i crush and go like 10-1 i still am barely over supports in damage, i remember with pre nerf elise i was always at the top, is it possible that nerfs hit her so hard or its because of the no penetration build ? if so is anyone still using old elise build with success? maybe i need to invest into hybrid pen marks which should give me good balance between clear speed and dmg
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On May 27 2014 06:30 johnybravo22 wrote:
im still not sure about cdr elise, i copied meteos rune pages with AS marks and win with her quite often but after game summary always shows i did barely and damage to champions, even in games where i crush and go like 10-1 i still am barely over supports in damage, i remember with pre nerf elise i was always at the top, is it possible that nerfs hit her so hard or its because of the no penetration build ? if so is anybody still using old elise build with success? maybe i need to invest into hybrid pen marks which should give me good balance between clear speed and dmg
I run Elise with hybrid pen marks, 15% cdr from masteries and runes and R>Q>E>W max. Feels good to me, all those cumshots and rappels gives you awesome teamfighting/brawling.
You do deal a lot less burst damage than prenerf elise and magic pen builds, but you also have a much higher chance of getting multiple Cocoons and Rappels in a fight. You also get more Q's and higher spiderform W uptime, which increases your consistent damage.
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EPT
