On May 27 2014 02:37 dae wrote: Rengar should be nerfed/reworked since there is no counterplay to getting 1 shot by him.
You cant go third item defensive on ADC and do any damage to the current tanky champions, and by 4th item hes 1 shot you so many times he will kill you regardless.
Also, hes killing people in <1 second, which means you don't even have to arcane shift away, and no hope of any slower movement skills.
The majority of players that are playing Rengar are bad and have no idea how to start the snowball rolling, pulling his winrate down, doesn't mean he isn't broken.
Any champion that has 0 counter play shouldn't be in this game. It's just not fun for the receiving end, and not fun for the team with the Rengar that fed and is now useless. It's just not good for the game.
The counter play is to not be over extended. Surprise surprise, a fed assassin can kill an ADC 1v1 without any problems. This has been the case for like the past 2 to 3 years.
On May 27 2014 02:00 Sufficiency wrote: Yeah, so I think Rengar CAN be balanced without changing his R. But his other skills, particularly his Q and E, need nerfs.
they need to either change his ult and keep his damage numbers or nerf his damage numbers.
if they changed his ult I wouldn't mind if they removed stealth but increased jump/movement speed or another buff.
stealth is just horribly difficult to balance. im amazed eve is actually balanced at the moment.
These are all nerfs/changes/reworks/fixes they already tried. It just gives you a different, but still unbalanced, Rengar.
Just curious, what is your definition of unbalanced? cuz this really is a lot of qq for a champ that I don't see being used in proplay in its current iteration, nor overwhelmingly prevalent in solo queue.
I don't care much about current rengar, he's just snowbally right now. However, this is just the curve that rengar has followed several times now: OP > irrelevant > fringe > OP. I object to his fundamental design because it is incompatible with the rest of LoL. So that.
So he's op'd now? Please, explain to me how a champion that only 1 specialist is godly at in the Challenger makes this champ op'd.
On May 27 2014 02:35 johnybravo22 wrote: the point is stealth and 1shot mechanic should not be in this game, whole point of rengar rework was to change that and he is still the same and does that shit again which he wasnt supposed to happen.
What?
The only iteration of Rengar that was considered broken in high levels of play was Tank Rengar, and that was broken for whole different reason.
what? tank rengar was almost completely dead in competitive play after his nerfs, they reworked him because of soloQ where glass cannon rengar was complete terror and unfun to play against because stealth + 1shot mechanic is toxic and has 0 counterplay
On May 27 2014 02:35 johnybravo22 wrote: the point is stealth and 1shot mechanic should not be in this game, whole point of rengar rework was to change that and he is still the same and does that shit again which he wasnt supposed to happen.
What?
The only iteration of Rengar that was considered broken in high levels of play was Tank Rengar, and that was broken for whole different reason.
what? tank rengar was almost completely dead in competitive play after his nerfs, they reworked him because of soloQ where glass cannon rengar was complete terror and unfun to play against because stealth + 1shot mechanic is toxic and has 0 counterplay
On May 27 2014 02:35 johnybravo22 wrote: the point is stealth and 1shot mechanic should not be in this game, whole point of rengar rework was to change that and he is still the same and does that shit again which he wasnt supposed to happen.
What?
The only iteration of Rengar that was considered broken in high levels of play was Tank Rengar, and that was broken for whole different reason.
what? tank rengar was almost completely dead in competitive play after his nerfs, they reworked him because of soloQ where glass cannon rengar was complete terror and unfun to play against because stealth + 1shot mechanic is toxic and has 0 counterplay
I'm talking way in the past, like towards end of S2. Other than Tank Rengar, and occasional Westrice in Challenger Scene, there has been very very minimal Rengar play in pro-scene.
even now, in solo queue. Ryan Choi is the only guy playing Rengar to this level. Specialists are going to be specialists, that's their thing.
On May 27 2014 02:35 johnybravo22 wrote: the point is stealth and 1shot mechanic should not be in this game, whole point of rengar rework was to change that and he is still the same and does that shit again which he wasnt supposed to happen.
What?
The only iteration of Rengar that was considered broken in high levels of play was Tank Rengar, and that was broken for whole different reason.
what? tank rengar was almost completely dead in competitive play after his nerfs, they reworked him because of soloQ where glass cannon rengar was complete terror and unfun to play against because stealth + 1shot mechanic is toxic and has 0 counterplay
And he's sooooooooooo different now.
thats the reason why people are raging on reddit and lol forums right now, the rework failed to fix his problems, not the first time riot tried do something and their change completely backfired
On May 27 2014 02:35 johnybravo22 wrote: the point is stealth and 1shot mechanic should not be in this game, whole point of rengar rework was to change that and he is still the same and does that shit again which he wasnt supposed to happen.
What?
The only iteration of Rengar that was considered broken in high levels of play was Tank Rengar, and that was broken for whole different reason.
what? tank rengar was almost completely dead in competitive play after his nerfs, they reworked him because of soloQ where glass cannon rengar was complete terror and unfun to play against because stealth + 1shot mechanic is toxic and has 0 counterplay
I'm talking way in the past, like towards end of S2. Other than Tank Rengar, and occasional Westrice in Challenger Scene, there has been very very minimal Rengar play in pro-scene.
even now, in solo queue. Ryan Choi is the only guy playing Rengar to this level. Specialists are going to be specialists, that's their thing.
tank regar wasnt played at all after batch of nerfs where they olafe;d his W, when rework came tank rengar wasnt a problem for over a year it was the one shot mechanic combined with stealth on glass cannon rengar which riot found problematic and wanted to fix, right now rengar has 18% pickrate in diamond++ and 12% banrate which keeps rising every day are u suggesting this is all ryan choi ?
I ban Rengar every game now. He gets ridiculously strong regardless of how his laning phase went. I've seen one go 0-3 and his team played well enough to stay in the game where he later just oneshots my carries before every fight. It's not like he takes a lot of skill to play. Ult, ghostblade -> e + hydra -> faceroll keyboard = dead squishies.
That say, the counterplay to Rengar is for your squishies to stay close to the team. Rengar won't get away like Kha Zix if he jumps into the middle of a team.
On May 27 2014 02:04 Zdrastochye wrote: People are just greedy and refuse to build tankiness in solo queue. If they have a Rengar, get a 3rd item armor item, because you could have 500 AD and be useless because you can't do shit when you're dead. Rengar might need to be tweaked, but people are acting as though there's absolutely nothing you can do at all ever. Hyperbole central in TLGD today.
so are you recommending adc's go randuins 3rd item or something?
in this meta when everyone and their mother has armor adc's can't afford to go defensive items till 4th item or even 5th.
and the only options you have are GA/banshee's pretty much.
randuins will not save you from rengar anyways.
Yeah I actually am recommending GA 3rd item vs a Rengar. I'm sorry that you'll do less damage, but I wonder if you'll do less damage overall being alive with 1 less damage item or dead with full damage items.
thats a GA instead of a last whisper+450 gold
thats about 50 AD and 35% armor pen you're missing out on.
if you're going to make yourself that weak there is no need for rengar to pop you. he can just pop the ap carry and laugh as you do 0 damage to his team while his adc is wrecking yours.
Fixes your "zero counterplay" viewpoint. Maybe now adcs will have to just sit on vamp again and go vamp > AS item > LW. Who knows, it's almost like you can try new things besides what you see other people do. It's magical.
On May 27 2014 02:37 dae wrote: Rengar should be nerfed/reworked since there is no counterplay to getting 1 shot by him.
You cant go third item defensive on ADC and do any damage to the current tanky champions, and by 4th item hes 1 shot you so many times he will kill you regardless.
Also, hes killing people in <1 second, which means you don't even have to arcane shift away, and no hope of any slower movement skills.
The majority of players that are playing Rengar are bad and have no idea how to start the snowball rolling, pulling his winrate down, doesn't mean he isn't broken.
Any champion that has 0 counter play shouldn't be in this game. It's just not fun for the receiving end, and not fun for the team with the Rengar that fed and is now useless. It's just not good for the game.
The counter play is to not be over extended. Surprise surprise, a fed assassin can kill an ADC 1v1 without any problems. This has been the case for like the past 2 to 3 years.
On May 27 2014 02:00 Sufficiency wrote: Yeah, so I think Rengar CAN be balanced without changing his R. But his other skills, particularly his Q and E, need nerfs.
they need to either change his ult and keep his damage numbers or nerf his damage numbers.
if they changed his ult I wouldn't mind if they removed stealth but increased jump/movement speed or another buff.
stealth is just horribly difficult to balance. im amazed eve is actually balanced at the moment.
These are all nerfs/changes/reworks/fixes they already tried. It just gives you a different, but still unbalanced, Rengar.
Just curious, what is your definition of unbalanced? cuz this really is a lot of qq for a champ that I don't see being used in proplay in its current iteration, nor overwhelmingly prevalent in solo queue.
I don't care much about current rengar, he's just snowbally right now. However, this is just the curve that rengar has followed several times now: OP > irrelevant > fringe > OP. I object to his fundamental design because it is incompatible with the rest of LoL. So that.
So he's op'd now? Please, explain to me how a champion that only 1 specialist is godly at in the Challenger makes this champ op'd.
It doesn't matter if he is OP right now. He is a champion that is designed in such a flawed way, that even if he is balanced for this one patch (4.8), which is probably not even true, in 4.9 or 4.10 he will be horribly broken even if they don't change him, because of like a Jax + Shyvana nerf. Then they will have to nerf Rengar, to the ground (like the current Leblanc changes on PBE), because they dont actually understand what is wrong with him. Then they will do another mini rework, and he will filter through the cycle back to being ridiculous.
On May 27 2014 02:04 Zdrastochye wrote: People are just greedy and refuse to build tankiness in solo queue. If they have a Rengar, get a 3rd item armor item, because you could have 500 AD and be useless because you can't do shit when you're dead. Rengar might need to be tweaked, but people are acting as though there's absolutely nothing you can do at all ever. Hyperbole central in TLGD today.
so are you recommending adc's go randuins 3rd item or something?
in this meta when everyone and their mother has armor adc's can't afford to go defensive items till 4th item or even 5th.
and the only options you have are GA/banshee's pretty much.
randuins will not save you from rengar anyways.
Yeah I actually am recommending GA 3rd item vs a Rengar. I'm sorry that you'll do less damage, but I wonder if you'll do less damage overall being alive with 1 less damage item or dead with full damage items.
thats a GA instead of a last whisper+450 gold
thats about 50 AD and 35% armor pen you're missing out on.
if you're going to make yourself that weak there is no need for rengar to pop you. he can just pop the ap carry and laugh as you do 0 damage to his team while his adc is wrecking yours.
Fixes your "zero counterplay" viewpoint. Maybe now adcs will have to just sit on vamp again and go vamp > AS item > LW. Who knows, it's almost like you can try new things besides what you see other people do. It's magical.
That item build would never work lol.Dont know if rengar is op but he is certainly unpleasant to have on either team.
On May 27 2014 02:22 johnybravo22 wrote: famous vid with vasili vs choi vasili had omen but the resoult was always the same xD
that rengar build involves heavy armor pen randuin wont save u, few days ago i played jayce top got fed had 6 items went for randuin and rengar jungle who wasnt even glass cannon could still 1shot me
Wut. there's no omen there... and vasili was farming wright with no vision....
he got it later in that game didnt change much full vid
Yes, he gets it when Rengar has 15 fucking kills. And gets it after he gets his 3rd item IE. Please, use some logic before you post vids like this as if it's proof that Rengar is broken.
Also, I would say like 90% of those kills on Vasili, was vasili being GROSSLY out positioned on the map, relative to how much map pressure his team was putting out. Like, what the fuck is he doing farming wolves in front of his entire team, when they're getting their poopoo shoved in.
The first kill, that starts the snowball, Choi's Rengar kills Vasili's Twitch solo.
Rengar had 65 CS and 1 kills with no completed items. Twitch had 115 CS and 4 kills with BotRK already finished. I mean, sure its easy to say that Vasili was out of position after the fact, but if you're that far ahead and can see their mid frankly you shouldn't be scared of a jungle gank or their lane, your expectation is to turn and get a triple kill, especially when their support is someone like Janna and you have your BotRK active and Ultimate.
But what happens is that half health, 50 CS, 3 kill, 1 level down Rengar solo kills* 90% Health Twitch with his ultimate and BotRK active available far behind the creep wave. I know that escapeless AD's are kind of weak right now but that is absurd
*OK, Janna shields him, but she is level 6, so its only rank 3 shield
On May 27 2014 02:04 Zdrastochye wrote: People are just greedy and refuse to build tankiness in solo queue. If they have a Rengar, get a 3rd item armor item, because you could have 500 AD and be useless because you can't do shit when you're dead. Rengar might need to be tweaked, but people are acting as though there's absolutely nothing you can do at all ever. Hyperbole central in TLGD today.
so are you recommending adc's go randuins 3rd item or something?
in this meta when everyone and their mother has armor adc's can't afford to go defensive items till 4th item or even 5th.
and the only options you have are GA/banshee's pretty much.
randuins will not save you from rengar anyways.
Yeah I actually am recommending GA 3rd item vs a Rengar. I'm sorry that you'll do less damage, but I wonder if you'll do less damage overall being alive with 1 less damage item or dead with full damage items.
thats a GA instead of a last whisper+450 gold
thats about 50 AD and 35% armor pen you're missing out on.
if you're going to make yourself that weak there is no need for rengar to pop you. he can just pop the ap carry and laugh as you do 0 damage to his team while his adc is wrecking yours.
Fixes your "zero counterplay" viewpoint. Maybe now adcs will have to just sit on vamp again and go vamp > AS item > LW. Who knows, it's almost like you can try new things besides what you see other people do. It's magical.
That item build would never work lol.Dont know if rengar is op but he is certainly unpleasant to have on either team.
I think adding another 50-100 range on the ! Would help plenty. I honestly think now that rengar can't kill three towers before you blink solved his biggest problem.
On May 27 2014 02:22 johnybravo22 wrote: famous vid with vasili vs choi vasili had omen but the resoult was always the same xD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNNBXUhdUMs that rengar build involves heavy armor pen randuin wont save u, few days ago i played jayce top got fed had 6 items went for randuin and rengar jungle who wasnt even glass cannon could still 1shot me
Wut. there's no omen there... and vasili was farming wright with no vision....
Yes, he gets it when Rengar has 15 fucking kills. And gets it after he gets his 3rd item IE. Please, use some logic before you post vids like this as if it's proof that Rengar is broken.
Also, I would say like 90% of those kills on Vasili, was vasili being GROSSLY out positioned on the map, relative to how much map pressure his team was putting out. Like, what the fuck is he doing farming wolves in front of his entire team, when they're getting their poopoo shoved in.
The first kill, that starts the snowball, Choi's Rengar kills Vasili's Twitch solo.
Rengar had 65 CS and 1 kills with no completed items. Twitch had 115 CS and 4 kills with BotRK already finished. I mean, sure its easy to say that Vasili was out of position after the fact, but if you're that far ahead and can see their mid frankly you shouldn't be scared of a jungle gank or their lane, your expectation is to turn and get a triple kill, especially when their support is someone like Janna and you have your BotRK active and Ultimate.
But what happens is that half health, 50 CS, 3 kill, 1 level down Rengar solo kills* 90% Health Twitch with his ultimate and BotRK active available far behind the creep wave. I know that escapeless AD's are kind of weak right now but that is absurd
*OK, Janna shields him, but she is level 6, so its only rank 3 shield
he also had 4 dblades, which is insanely cost efficient, making him pretty damn tanky, and tons of damage. Also not to mention, Rengar is supposed to fucking do that to an ADC. That's just the nature of Assassins kit vs any ADC, it's not Rengar specific. If you get caught out that hard, no fucking shit you're dead. Even his support lux that way out of Rengars way got killed by his teammates. Vasili and his support overplayed their hands, and over extended, and started the snowball.
u are still missing the point that he isnt just regular assassin like zed or fizz, he has also stealth which is broken in current form, its a toxic (i hate that word but have to use it here ) combo of stealth and 1shot mechanic with no counterplay same reason why eve got changed 100x times before she became a tank, rengar rework was supposed to fix it but failed thats why people are angry also 4x doran blade is terrible, he paid 1720g for 32dmg and 320hp for that amount i can almost get 3 long swords and 2 rubys with with similar combined stats which build into samething even more cost efficent
On May 27 2014 02:04 Zdrastochye wrote: People are just greedy and refuse to build tankiness in solo queue. If they have a Rengar, get a 3rd item armor item, because you could have 500 AD and be useless because you can't do shit when you're dead. Rengar might need to be tweaked, but people are acting as though there's absolutely nothing you can do at all ever. Hyperbole central in TLGD today.
so are you recommending adc's go randuins 3rd item or something?
in this meta when everyone and their mother has armor adc's can't afford to go defensive items till 4th item or even 5th.
and the only options you have are GA/banshee's pretty much.
randuins will not save you from rengar anyways.
Yeah I actually am recommending GA 3rd item vs a Rengar. I'm sorry that you'll do less damage, but I wonder if you'll do less damage overall being alive with 1 less damage item or dead with full damage items.
thats a GA instead of a last whisper+450 gold
thats about 50 AD and 35% armor pen you're missing out on.
if you're going to make yourself that weak there is no need for rengar to pop you. he can just pop the ap carry and laugh as you do 0 damage to his team while his adc is wrecking yours.
Fixes your "zero counterplay" viewpoint. Maybe now adcs will have to just sit on vamp again and go vamp > AS item > LW. Who knows, it's almost like you can try new things besides what you see other people do. It's magical.
Its still "Zero Counterplay" because it doesn't actually fix the problem, or provide an avenue to win. AD's need their third item multiplicative scaling in order to be effective against the amount of armor and health that natural level and item progression for bruisers/tanks presents. They are not designed in order to 1v1 enemy bruisers/assassins unless they're ahead. If a champion, by simply existing, forces your ADC to forgo their second or third offensive item in favor of a defensive item then that champion pretty much must be OP. In a straight up team fight, even if their AD lives long enough to kill Rengar will not do enough damage to the rest of Rengar's team to win the fight unless their team has a similar champion which makes Rengar's AD make the same choice.
On May 27 2014 02:22 johnybravo22 wrote: famous vid with vasili vs choi vasili had omen but the resoult was always the same xD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNNBXUhdUMs that rengar build involves heavy armor pen randuin wont save u, few days ago i played jayce top got fed had 6 items went for randuin and rengar jungle who wasnt even glass cannon could still 1shot me
Wut. there's no omen there... and vasili was farming wright with no vision....
Yes, he gets it when Rengar has 15 fucking kills. And gets it after he gets his 3rd item IE. Please, use some logic before you post vids like this as if it's proof that Rengar is broken.
Also, I would say like 90% of those kills on Vasili, was vasili being GROSSLY out positioned on the map, relative to how much map pressure his team was putting out. Like, what the fuck is he doing farming wolves in front of his entire team, when they're getting their poopoo shoved in.
The first kill, that starts the snowball, Choi's Rengar kills Vasili's Twitch solo.
Rengar had 65 CS and 1 kills with no completed items. Twitch had 115 CS and 4 kills with BotRK already finished. I mean, sure its easy to say that Vasili was out of position after the fact, but if you're that far ahead and can see their mid frankly you shouldn't be scared of a jungle gank or their lane, your expectation is to turn and get a triple kill, especially when their support is someone like Janna and you have your BotRK active and Ultimate.
But what happens is that half health, 50 CS, 3 kill, 1 level down Rengar solo kills* 90% Health Twitch with his ultimate and BotRK active available far behind the creep wave. I know that escapeless AD's are kind of weak right now but that is absurd
*OK, Janna shields him, but she is level 6, so its only rank 3 shield
he also had 4 dblades, which is insanely cost efficient, making him pretty damn tanky, and tons of damage. Also not to mention, Rengar is supposed to fucking do that to an ADC. That's just the nature of Assassins kit vs any ADC, it's not Rengar specific. If you get caught out that hard, no fucking shit you're dead. Even his support lux that way out of Rengars way got killed by his teammates. Vasili and his support overplayed their hands, and over extended, and started the snowball.
Look, if you cannot be expected to beat someone who is 50 CS, 1 level, and 3 kills down while you have completed items and they do not then AD's are completely obsoleted by Rengar. Yea its easy to say after the fact "they overplayed their hand" but they only overplayed their hand because Rengar is completely fucking bonkers, something that they should not have cause to know.
Twitch even plays that right, as soon as he see's Rengar's "!", he pops his stealth and starts to run away.
Boots 0 Rengar catches Boots 2 Twitch and kills him before he can stealth and escape
On May 27 2014 01:19 turdburgler wrote: i dont see how anyone can possibly defend a situation where any champ can kill another with 0 opportunity to fight back.
Your "opportunity to fight back" was by not being in a place where you can be solo-killed or by not itemizing such that you can be solo-killed.
Not all situations should be "outplay"-able. The game also needs to emphasize awareness and foresight by having those situations where if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, you're dead regardless of what you do.
Now maybe in Rengar's case, these situations come up too often due to how hard it is to keep track of him thanks to the vision changes, but in general the concept of strong solo-killing power is not something that is inherently toxic or bad for the game.
3 item rengar 1 shots, adc's.
if a 3 item adc builds randiuns as his third item the game is already over. rengar no longer needs to retardo dive to win team fights, and even if he does, theres still an ap mid to look at.
and at the end of the day this is all beside my point, i dont care if you can outplay it, i dont care if its OP or not (eg poppy) i just think its 0 fun and super frustrating for it to even be possible.
On May 27 2014 02:49 johnybravo22 wrote:
tank regar wasnt played at all after batch of nerfs where they olafe;d his W, when rework came tank rengar wasnt a problem for over a year it was the one shot mechanic combined with stealth on glass cannon rengar which riot found problematic and wanted to fix, right now rengar has 18% pickrate in diamond++ and 12% banrate which keeps rising every day are u suggesting this is all ryan choi ?
EPT
