EPT[Patch 4.8] RIP Pantheon General Discussion - Page 31
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Gahlo
United States35091 Posts
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On May 27 2014 03:42 Gahlo wrote: Anybody know good jungle streams? Looking to broaden my horizon outside of NB3/TOO. English speaking a plus. trick2g. Saint streams quite a bit on azubu now too. On May 27 2014 03:43 turdburgler wrote: one day people will learn stealth is toxic game mechanic :D one day people will learn to stop QQ about champions that aren't even OP'd. | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
On May 27 2014 03:43 turdburgler wrote: one day people will learn stealth is toxic game mechanic :D I wouldn't say it's toxic it's just hard to balance for both casual and competitive play. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On May 27 2014 03:31 johnybravo22 wrote: u are still missing the point that he isnt just regular assassin like zed or fizz, he has also stealth which is broken in current form, its a toxic (i hate that word but have to use it here ) combo of stealth and 1shot mechanic with no counterplay same reason why eve got changed 100x times before she became a tank, rengar rework was supposed to fix it but failed thats why people are angry also 4x doran blade is terrible, he paid 1720g for 24dmg and 240hp for that amount i can almost get 3 long swords and 2 rubys with with a lot better combined stats which build into samething even more cost efficent 32 damage and 320 HP for 1760g. Decent efficient in terms of raw power (plus 20 hp/hit which isn't inconsequential) but not so much so compared to 1720 gold of other items that we should say "well of course he won because he bought Doran's Blades" because it belays the question of "why don't other champions just get 4 doran's blades and wreck with them if they're that efficient". The difference between 4 Dorans and say Giant's Belt and Pickaxe (25 AD, 380 HP for 1875 gold) isn't all that much, its a whopping 7 AD and -60 HP. The answer of course, is "Rango is bonkers". I mean, Twitch is a level up here, so he has an extra 3 AD, 3 armor, and 81 HP of "free stats" compared to Rengar, nearly a Doran's Blade right there. Maybe the difference is that, i think that twitch ought to come out ahead in that 1v1 right there? That for some reason an AD who is up a level, 50 CS, 3 kills, and completed items ought to beat a melee assassin? | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On May 27 2014 03:38 turdburgler wrote: 3 item rengar 1 shots, adc's. And the thing is, I am OK with that. I am just not OK with that when the three items are Doran's Blades and the AD is 2000 gold ahead. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On May 27 2014 03:47 Nos- wrote: I wouldn't say it's toxic it's just hard to balance for both casual and competitive play. It's actually not that hard. Riot just screwed up their vision rework extremely hard and refuses to add in cheap detection items like dust. | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
On May 27 2014 03:55 Numy wrote: It's actually not that hard. Riot just screwed up their vision rework extremely hard and refuses to add in cheap detection items like dust. dust had to be buffed didn't it? I think it slows now? | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On May 27 2014 03:48 Goumindong wrote: 32 damage and 320 HP for 1760g. Decent efficient in terms of raw power (plus 20 hp/hit which isn't inconsequential) but not so much so compared to 1720 gold of other items that we should say "well of course he won because he bought Doran's Blades" because it belays the question of "why don't other champions just get 4 doran's blades and wreck with them if they're that efficient". The difference between 4 Dorans and say Giant's Belt and Pickaxe (25 AD, 380 HP for 1875 gold) isn't all that much, its a whopping 7 AD and -60 HP. The answer of course, is "Rango is bonkers". I mean, Twitch is a level up here, so he has an extra 3 AD, 3 armor, and 81 HP of "free stats" compared to Rengar, nearly a Doran's Blade right there. Maybe the difference is that, i think that twitch ought to come out ahead in that 1v1 right there? That for some reason an AD who is up a level, 50 CS, 3 kills, and completed items ought to beat a melee assassin? There are plenty of champions that straight up lose in 1v1 despite being tons of gold worth of item ahead, the difference is different champions accomplish different things at different points in time. If every single champion had the same exact homogenized powercurve that riot dreamed they could have, then yes, Twitch should have won that duel. But, holy shit, the game would be so fucking pointless with no powercurves. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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johnybravo22
38 Posts
On May 27 2014 03:43 wei2coolman wrote: trick2g. Saint streams quite a bit on azubu now too. one day people will learn to stop QQ about champions that aren't even OP'd. says who ? you ? because thats like your opinion, meanwhile there are plenty high elo people saying otherwise and banning rengar, he might not be op but hes definately unfun and unfair to play against even riot thinks that which they tried to fix with their failed rework | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On May 27 2014 03:57 Nos- wrote: dust had to be buffed didn't it? I think it slows now? It does but think that was only really to shift the balance between dust and sentry wards. Sentry wards are far more useful for pushing and defensive positioning compared to dust. Dust was still using pre-buff though, this just made it better. It's mainly used for offensive plays compared to sentries. It's a 15% slow that I think only activates if the person remains in the stealth but not i'm sure. Only recently started playing more dota. Either way it's not a huge slow lol. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On May 27 2014 03:43 wei2coolman wrote: trick2g. Saint streams quite a bit on azubu now too. one day people will learn to stop QQ about champions that aren't even OP'd. I dont see why it matters if Rengar is actually OP, if he is weak, or if he is just dumb like some people in this thread are saying. He is poorly designed, and you have consistently failed to refute that very important fact. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On May 27 2014 03:42 Gahlo wrote: Anybody know good jungle streams? Looking to broaden my horizon outside of NB3/TOO. English speaking a plus. http://www.twitch.tv/scipaeus his english is pretty sexy too | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On May 27 2014 03:59 johnybravo22 wrote: says who ? you ? because there are plenty high elo people saying otherwise and banning rengar, he might not be op but hes definately unfun and unfair to play against even riot thinks that which they tried to fix with their failed rework says 1) not top 10 win rate in daily/weekly/monthly in all regions in diamond/challenger. 2) not top 10 popularity in daily/weekly/monthly in all regions in diamond/challenger 3) not top 10 ban rate EDIT: is 10th ban rate in the past week in NA, not on EU, and overall regions not in top 10. 4) only matchups in top lane in diamond level that rengar has above 50% winrate is Renekton/Shyv/Malphite/Shen/Darius, only 2 of which are considered strong FotM picks. 5) barely seen any pro level pick/ban in his current post-rework. On May 27 2014 04:03 cLutZ wrote: I dont see why it matters if Rengar is actually OP, if he is weak, or if he is just dumb like some people in this thread are saying. He is poorly designed, and you have consistently failed to refute that very important fact. If he's not op'd, who cares about design? Design only becomes an issue if it's over bearing on the general populus of the game. Which he clearly isn't. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 27 2014 04:00 Numy wrote: It does but think that was only really to shift the balance between dust and sentry wards. Sentry wards are far more useful for pushing and defensive positioning compared to dust. Dust was still using pre-buff though, this just made it better. It's mainly used for offensive plays compared to sentries. It's a 15% slow that I think only activates if the person remains in the stealth but not i'm sure. Only recently started playing more dota. Either way it's not a huge slow lol. The Dust buff just made it better suited for its actual detection role because it's supposed to be better for chasing an invis hero trying to use it as an escape since the buff persists, but in practice most of those escape invisibilities had MS buffs attached which made it awkward to use in practice (either you had enough stuns that a sentry was good enough anyway, or you didn't and they got away with their MS buff). The slow is meant to counteract those MS boosts so Dust is more usable in its intended use case. | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
On May 27 2014 04:00 Numy wrote: It does but think that was only really to shift the balance between dust and sentry wards. Sentry wards are far more useful for pushing and defensive positioning compared to dust. Dust was still using pre-buff though, this just made it better. It's mainly used for offensive plays compared to sentries. It's a 15% slow that I think only activates if the person remains in the stealth but not i'm sure. Only recently started playing more dota. Either way it's not a huge slow lol. Well the slow seems to make dust more of an offensive thing like you said, where you could use it to make plays on the (I'm assuming) roaming invis hero and kill him with the slow from dust. I'm not sure if this really helps with rengar since you would probably need to roam with 2 or more or else the ad rengar could just gib you. Maybe in bottom lane there can be 2 pink wards but them being visible means you have to play a really dangerous game of pushing all the time so the enemy laners can't clear them out. I also don't really know how you would deal with a mid lane rengar ult gank straight through the lane. nvm rengar ult doesn't last THAT long, some deep-ish wards is probably a-okay for lane phase. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On May 27 2014 04:07 Nos- wrote: Well the slow seems to make dust more of an offensive thing like you said, where you could use it to make plays on the (I'm assuming) roaming invis hero and kill him with the slow from dust. I'm not sure if this really helps with rengar since you would probably need to roam with 2 or more or else the ad rengar could just gib you. Maybe in bottom lane there can be 2 pink wards but them being visible means you have to play a really dangerous game of pushing all the time so the enemy laners can't clear them out. I also don't really know how you would deal with a mid lane rengar ult gank straight through the lane. That's where the vision rework failing comes into play. If pink wards were more like their original form(or just like sentry wards) than bottom lane could easily set up a defensive position eliminating the threat of Rengar using his invis offensively. Rengar actually reminds me a lot of a solo mid Nyx pre nerf. Almost the exact same playstyle where one of the most effective ways to deal with that was to set up defensive sentry wards and position accordingly. You can't do this in LoL due to how the vision rework went so it effectively makes stealth an imbalanced mechanic. It's not that stealth is inherently bad, it's that all the tools to deal with stealth either got removed completely or put in an unusable fashion. It speaks volumes when the most effective way to deal with Eve is not to get detection but instead ward the jungle camps to allow you to see her when he isn't stealthed. edit: I actually think it may be impossible for Riot to make pink wards like sentry wards due to the way vision works in League. I'm not really a game designer so I don't know if it's possible for Riot to change how one ward works. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
LoL in general makes the first item timing hard to challenge unless you're 2v1ing or crushing him in lane, because it's not always the case that laning breaks fast enough for the team as a whole to challenge the first major item. | ||
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chalice
United States1945 Posts
On May 27 2014 04:05 wei2coolman wrote: says 1) not top 10 win rate in daily/weekly/monthly in all regions in diamond/challenger. 2) not top 10 popularity in daily/weekly/monthly in all regions in diamond/challenger 3) not top 10 ban rate 4) only matchups in top lane in diamond level that rengar has above 50% winrate is Renekton/Shyv/Malphite/Shen/Darius, only 2 of which are considered strong FotM picks. 5) barely seen any pro level pick/ban in his current post-rework. If he's not op'd, who cares about design? Design only becomes an issue if it's over bearing on the general populus of the game. Which he clearly isn't. blindly using winrates to judge champion strength is almost always dumb, but probably not as dumb as using a positive winrate against renekton and shyvana as a reason why rengar is NOT op. being able to hang with ren/shyv in lane is basically what determines whether a champ is a viable top or not. | ||
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