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United States37500 Posts
On May 11 2014 06:41 nafta wrote:
Actually the difference in slows is HUGE.You steal 30% you don't just slow them for 30.Pretty much all shyvanas I've seen just farm and are useless cause they cant go tanky fast enough and gank much.Unless they get random kills in early/mid.Then she is real terror.
So Cutlass is a flat 25% slow, BotRK is your champion steals 30% of the enemy MS (meaning you actually go faster while enemy goes slower, instead of just the latter)
But still, with Burnout, I don't see how all that MS debuff is warranted. Especially not at the cost of 1800 gold.
Edit: Yeah, most Ryze open Blue Crystal now. They back and buy immediately when they have enough gold for Tear and come back to lane. If you play against a Flash/Ignite Ryze, your best bet would be to push him to lane early and force him to base where he misses exp and gold.
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On Noc I prefer finishing BotRK, but that's because I tend to ditch people in teamfights and dive pretty hard for kills. The active steals MS, which lets me chase and maybe get further away from the fight if I'm drawing attention (and reenter later), or potentially get behind my fear target (where cutlass into keeps it in range) to send it back towards my team. Also the damage increase is pretty good for bursting.
Obviously in these cases I don't initiate with the ult unless it's a catch or a clearly one-sided fight. In teamfights I show myself so they're a bit afraid (because Flare+BotRK Nocturne at this point is a monster duelist) but I don't go in, and once the fight starts I ignore the enemy and dive my target.
I've tried zerkers once on top of it but I disliked it because I felt too squishy. Normally I only have mercs or tabi instead but their respective passives bring a lot to the table while once you have so much AS (even moreso if you block an ability with Shroud) the AS from zerkers is pretty weak. I guess it wouldn't work so well if I manage to climb into Plat as people would get better at grouping early against such picks/when they're behind.
Noc being so fast on his first buff with some help is pretty nice too because it lets him steal (or invade) a bunch of other junglers on blue side with a red->red(smite) route, if they're slow/get low enough.
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United States37500 Posts
Zerker on Noc is so so bad. :x Plz never.
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You can't knock it before you try it! Or something like that. I saw a bunch of people on stream and in games try it, I thought "let's give it a try".
I exploded at some point when we had to fought near our mid tower, because burst+cc = I used cutlass+E on Kha'Zix and died before I could even end the channel.
(Still ended up 7-2 but that's because in a drake fight that I forced, hence way more chaotic, I got a triple by last-hitting 2 enemy champions.)
Wholly unconvinced then. I'd get zerkers on Irelia since she's so reliant on a bunch of early AS to snowball her midgame anyway, but since Noc doesn't have her burst nor her ult for the sustain, def. not on him.
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I'm too much of a pussy for Zerkers on melee, I even build mercs half of my Yasuo games >.> (but I also use Dade's build which somewhat makes up for it)
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On May 11 2014 06:41 nafta wrote:
Actually the difference in slows is HUGE.You steal 30% you don't just slow them for 30.Pretty much all shyvanas I've seen just farm and are useless cause they cant go tanky fast enough and gank much.Unless they get random kills in early/mid.Then she is real terror.
The difference in slows isn't as big as you might expect. It's a real big difference for using it defensively, but offensively the enemy champion isn't going to be getting that much farther away during the slow, and your speed boost isn't going to make a difference in whether or not you stick to him during his slow.
It's also good to remember that the way the game does speed boosts and slows math wise, a 30% slow is larger than a 30% speed boost. If you just look at the numbers you might think Cutlass to BotRK doubles the closing power of the active, but that's not correct.
The Cutlass active is very underrated, especially against squishies and especially early in the game. Sure the BotRK active is better, but it's not 1800g better. If you're a champion that doesn't scale real well with attackspeed, sitting on Cutlass and finishing some other offensive item can be much more efficient than rushing the BotRK.
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On May 11 2014 07:04 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 06:41 nafta wrote:
Actually the difference in slows is HUGE.You steal 30% you don't just slow them for 30.Pretty much all shyvanas I've seen just farm and are useless cause they cant go tanky fast enough and gank much.Unless they get random kills in early/mid.Then she is real terror. The difference in slows isn't as big as you might expect. It's a real big difference for using it defensively, but offensively the enemy champion isn't going to be getting that much farther away during the slow, and your speed boost isn't going to make a difference in whether or not you stick to him during his slow. It's also good to remember that the way the game does speed boosts and slows math wise, a 30% slow is larger than a 30% speed boost. If you just look at the numbers you might think Cutlass to BotRK doubles the closing power of the active, but that's not correct. The Cutlass active is very underrated, especially against squishies and especially early in the game. Sure the BotRK active is better, but it's not 1800g better. If you're a champion that doesn't scale real well with attackspeed, sitting on Cutlass and finishing some other offensive item can be much more efficient than rushing the BotRK.
feel like if your champion doesnt scale with the attack speed you shouldnt be buying bork instead, especially when hydra is there if youre more bursty, like riven or something.
also is looking at peoples profiles only showing them as being in bronze or did they do a ninja change?
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On May 11 2014 07:04 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 06:41 nafta wrote:
Actually the difference in slows is HUGE.You steal 30% you don't just slow them for 30.Pretty much all shyvanas I've seen just farm and are useless cause they cant go tanky fast enough and gank much.Unless they get random kills in early/mid.Then she is real terror. The difference in slows isn't as big as you might expect. It's a real big difference for using it defensively, but offensively the enemy champion isn't going to be getting that much farther away during the slow, and your speed boost isn't going to make a difference in whether or not you stick to him during his slow. It's also good to remember that the way the game does speed boosts and slows math wise, a 30% slow is larger than a 30% speed boost. If you just look at the numbers you might think Cutlass to BotRK doubles the closing power of the active, but that's not correct. The Cutlass active is very underrated, especially against squishies and especially early in the game. Sure the BotRK active is better, but it's not 1800g better. If you're a champion that doesn't scale real well with attackspeed, sitting on Cutlass and finishing some other offensive item can be much more efficient than rushing the BotRK.
Atk speed does help shyvana a lot and you are underestimating the difference.I never said it doubled the difference but saying it isn't a lot bigger is simply false.Especially if the enemy has bork as well it matters a lot.
It depends on the situation but most of the time shyvana wont be very useful until she gets decently farmed so getting a splitpushing item like bork can be very helpful to get you going faster.
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United States37500 Posts
l0l, we were talking about BotRK on junglers, how did Hydra get into this conversation?
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United States37500 Posts
On May 11 2014 07:15 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 07:04 Ketara wrote:On May 11 2014 06:41 nafta wrote:
Actually the difference in slows is HUGE.You steal 30% you don't just slow them for 30.Pretty much all shyvanas I've seen just farm and are useless cause they cant go tanky fast enough and gank much.Unless they get random kills in early/mid.Then she is real terror. The difference in slows isn't as big as you might expect. It's a real big difference for using it defensively, but offensively the enemy champion isn't going to be getting that much farther away during the slow, and your speed boost isn't going to make a difference in whether or not you stick to him during his slow. It's also good to remember that the way the game does speed boosts and slows math wise, a 30% slow is larger than a 30% speed boost. If you just look at the numbers you might think Cutlass to BotRK doubles the closing power of the active, but that's not correct. The Cutlass active is very underrated, especially against squishies and especially early in the game. Sure the BotRK active is better, but it's not 1800g better. If you're a champion that doesn't scale real well with attackspeed, sitting on Cutlass and finishing some other offensive item can be much more efficient than rushing the BotRK. Atk speed does help shyvana a lot and you are underestimating the difference.I never said it doubled the difference but saying it isn't a lot bigger is simply false.Especially if the enemy has bork as well it matters a lot. It depends on the situation but most of the time shyvana wont be very useful until she gets decently farmed so getting a splitpushing item like bork can be very helpful to get you going faster.
So we're in agreement that timing the BotRK buy is important. It's not a good use of 1800 gold as your first major item after Feral Flare but obviously something you want mid game, 3-4 items in.
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On May 11 2014 06:30 wei2coolman wrote:
For people who still play feral flare jungle. Is it better to hold onto madreds and go straight into botrk then finish wriggles/ff?
its a bit of a balancing act imo, if you get wriggles and gank successfully you get stacks hella fast, but if you don't think you would be ganking as hard there's probably merit to waiting
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On May 11 2014 07:17 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 07:15 nafta wrote:On May 11 2014 07:04 Ketara wrote:On May 11 2014 06:41 nafta wrote:
Actually the difference in slows is HUGE.You steal 30% you don't just slow them for 30.Pretty much all shyvanas I've seen just farm and are useless cause they cant go tanky fast enough and gank much.Unless they get random kills in early/mid.Then she is real terror. The difference in slows isn't as big as you might expect. It's a real big difference for using it defensively, but offensively the enemy champion isn't going to be getting that much farther away during the slow, and your speed boost isn't going to make a difference in whether or not you stick to him during his slow. It's also good to remember that the way the game does speed boosts and slows math wise, a 30% slow is larger than a 30% speed boost. If you just look at the numbers you might think Cutlass to BotRK doubles the closing power of the active, but that's not correct. The Cutlass active is very underrated, especially against squishies and especially early in the game. Sure the BotRK active is better, but it's not 1800g better. If you're a champion that doesn't scale real well with attackspeed, sitting on Cutlass and finishing some other offensive item can be much more efficient than rushing the BotRK. Atk speed does help shyvana a lot and you are underestimating the difference.I never said it doubled the difference but saying it isn't a lot bigger is simply false.Especially if the enemy has bork as well it matters a lot. It depends on the situation but most of the time shyvana wont be very useful until she gets decently farmed so getting a splitpushing item like bork can be very helpful to get you going faster. So we're in agreement that timing the BotRK buy is important. It's not a good use of 1800 gold as your first major item after Feral Flare but obviously something you want mid game, 3-4 items in.
Well depends a lot on teamcomps but generaly it should be either your 2nd item or 3rd.Unless your team has a lot of damage and you can just build full tank and just run at them like a retard.
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Zerker is fine on Noc in the right situation. It IS cheap plus the AS makes you clear like a boss.
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Also playing yolo is playing right.
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SoloQ is such an emotional rollercoaster.
At the start of today, I was on my promo for plat 5 on my smurf. I was like, "OK, win 3 games out of 5 and I can quit this game until Season 5".
Then I failed my promo 1-3 and got to 75LP. I was like "OK, win 5 games out of 7 and I can quit this game until Season 5".
Then I lost another 4 games in a row and now I am at 8LP.
Sigh...
User was warned for this post
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Two times I got on tilt after a dc, a huge throw by one or more stupid teammates, or a straight-up troll made me fail the promo to Plat, decided to keep playing despite that, and after a 10+ losing streak end go from 1/2-0 promos to 0 LP. Not a good idea. 
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On May 11 2014 06:13 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 06:05 739 wrote:
I started playing Diana jungle again and I have to say that her mid/late game is moterfucking surprisingly good. You can actually melt people in 2 secs. Diana Jungle is perfectly fine in solo q. She has solid wave clear and ganks. Just less reliable if you ever miss your Q. You can still Dash and Pull-in but you're missing a lot of damage from no Q.
I've been playing around with Diana jungle a bit. I like to build Ancient golem for the stronger 2v2 in the early and early mid-game since her bases are so bonkers. I usually get a lichbane+zhonyas and get 2 more tank items and try to be a disruptor with assassination potential if I can land Q on the adc (which is very hard to do in team fights). I've also been getting 2 points into w before maxing q so I go w-q-w-e-q-r then max q. By level 8 it makes no difference but the amount of damage you prevent in the jungle makes you a stronger counter gank threat at 6-7
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On May 11 2014 01:31 Ketara wrote:
So, I got Velkoz and tried him in one game, he seemed really fun. I kind of want to practice him more.
What have people been getting/skilling on him? I've heard he's not all that great. His biggest issue to me at first glance seems to be that he wants to max both Q and W right away.
There's a Vel'Koz thread now fyi 
But to answer from my experience (mainly mid lane), I level Q and W simultaneously, with one point in E. I don't care if it isn't efficient or maximising or whatever, it just feels so right on him. Doing it this way means you don't end up with all poke and no wave clear and vice versa.
(Assume boots wherever) Grail -> Guise -> Void staff -> Rylai's -> Liandry's -> last item situational. If I'm fed I'll get Death cap. Banshee's/Zhonya's if their team necessitates them. If it's close, I might get some utility from spooky ghosts.
I tend to avoid out and out defensive items and rely on positioning/kiting to stay safe. With Rylai's, alacrity boots, and movespeed items (if you go for spooky ghosts), you are super hard to catch, provided you land your skill shots.
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Havent played in a while. Any suggestions for low mechanic junglers (not Elise, Lee)? I play Kha, Eve and Panth, but Panth seems weak dunno. Maybe Vi is she strong atm ?
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On May 11 2014 08:09 Kenpark wrote:
Havent played in a while. Any suggestions for low mechanic junglers (not Elise, Lee)? I play Kha, Eve and Panth, but Panth seems weak dunno. Maybe Vi is she strong atm ?
Nocturne.I guess yi as usual if he somehow leaves ban phase.Vi is strong depending on team comps but she is just a solid champ so you can definitely play her too.
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EPT
