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Gahlo
United States35162 Posts
On May 02 2014 11:25 NeoIllusions wrote: Said player from relegated team, not top lane. Could be Zion or Shiphtur. I highly doubt Monte would play the "move Link to top lane" game. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On May 02 2014 11:26 Gahlo wrote: I highly doubt Monte would play the "move Link to top lane" game. he specifically said it was an option lol | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On May 02 2014 10:03 Ketara wrote: I'd like to take this time to talk about something I don't like about AP items. I think Deathcap is a stupid item. Basically, most of the AP items I think are really good. Some of them are possibly too strong (Athenes, Athenes and also Athenes), but basically what all of them do is give you AP, plus some secondary statistic that isn't directly related to your damage. They give some defensive statistic, some item active, or some utility statistic like Rylais slow or magic pen etc. What this means is that, ideally if they're balanced well, every single one of them is viable on most AP champions in a specific situation. Deathcap however doesn't give any secondary statistic. It only gives AP. And I feel like that's kind of boring. Ideally every other AP item has that unique situation where you want it in your item list, but Deathcap just gives damage. Further, the Deathcap passive adding multiplicative scaling on your AP, means you almost always want a Deathcap somewhere in your build. I know there are some AP mids who never get a Deathcap in normal games, but it's a very small number of champions. If you want a big AP damage build, you're likely getting a Deathcap. What this means is that Deathcap is limiting item build choices, because your build always has to, at some point of the game, include a Deathcap, which is not giving you any interesting or cool secondary statistics to meet an individual situation, it's just giving you a huge AP boost. Void Staff kind of does the same thing, but Riot has said they want to tackle Void Staff / LW at some point, I'm guessing after they introduce larger rune changes in season 5 or something. I think AP itemization would be much more interesting and fun if Deathcap were just removed, and every champion who popularly builds Deathcap had their AP ratios increased by 10-20% to compensate. Unfortunately, that would probably be too large a balance change affecting too many champions for it to ever happen at this point. Oh the good old days when Zhonyas/Deathcap were one item lolol | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On May 02 2014 10:56 Ketara wrote: IE is pretty fucking dumb too, lets be honest. It's not as bad as Deathcap tho. Wut. Deathcap is hardly problematic. Athenes and Voidstaff 10X more toxic than Deathcap. On May 02 2014 11:15 Neverhood wrote: http://www.ongamers.com/articles/clg-confirms-seraph-as-leading-candidate-for-top-lane-will-tryout-at-the-clg-team-house/1100-1340/ I wonder who they were trying to buyout from NA...has to be shiphtur right? Shin was tested for game knowledge, English proficiency, and mechanical skill by CLG Head Coach Christopher 'MonteCristo' Mykles. This is how I imagined it went. "Can you say TEE PEE?"-Monte "Tuh- Peh"-Seraph "good enough. congrats on joining CLG, and here's your fat potential check."-Monte Although I highly suspect the most important test for Monte Cristo, was a blood test to check if Seraph was indeed Korean. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On May 02 2014 11:47 cLutZ wrote: There really is nothing wrong with having a few best in slot items, particularly for damage. Do you really want to WOW theorycraft in real time about a Ring of Wisdom vs. a Ring a Rejuvenation based on the number of Arcane Missiles rotations you can get off? Kinda, yeah. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35162 Posts
Yeah, but I doubt he wants to. | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
why? | ||
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Gahlo
United States35162 Posts
Oh god, the comments. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Because I like the idea that somebody who can figure out the optimally best build order for an individual game situation is a better player than somebody who just builds the same items all the time. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On May 02 2014 11:55 Gahlo wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/24haqb/doublelift_on_clg_seraph_ft_xpecial/ Oh god, the comments. I really want DL in top lane, so we can finally see Vayne toplane. Quas failed to deliver this split. On May 02 2014 12:02 TheYango wrote: I can sort of see where Ketara is coming from, especially if you remember that the sole reason that Deathcap exists is because Riot thought having the DCap passive and Zhonya active on one item was too OP and split it into two separate items rather than removing the DCap passive component because somehow they felt keeping the DCap passive in the game at all still had value. IMO the interaction between trading damage and utility with Dcap is pretty good game interaction (in this meta) with how builds work nowadays. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 02 2014 11:56 Ketara wrote: Because I like the idea that somebody who can figure out the optimally best build order for an individual game situation is a better player than somebody who just builds the same items all the time. I can sympathize with this line of reasoning quite a bit, but you have to realize also that it doesn't feel very good when the differentiating factor is largely just numbers. Ideally "figuring out the best item for a given game state" translates into varied gameplay between items. Picking the one that's numerically the best while still playing the same way is not very visible to many people because unless someone is both paying attention to this and skilled enough to assess the impact of the item choice, the impact is basically invisible. Meaningful item choices should be centered around the items' unique specific utility toward playing a certain way in a given game, not just maximizing character sheet DPS. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
In case #3, we will call it the "Ketara Plan" for most players you dont actually do calculations in game. Instead, you either have proprietary best builds (aka pay money out of game to be better), public best builds (do boring things to win), or it doesnt matter much/becomes standardized (which is really just situation 2). | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
I wouldn't mind seeing DFG become that "greedy" item (if you just made it pure ap+active) and get rid of the ap% passive, but we do need to take a look at the other options then (and Athene's is the far bigger offender on my radar anyway) | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On May 02 2014 12:06 TheYango wrote: I can sympathize with this line of reasoning quite a bit, but you have to realize also that it doesn't feel very good when the differentiating factor is largely just numbers. Ideally "figuring out the best item for a given game state" translates into varied gameplay between items. Picking the one that's numerically the best while still playing the same way is not very visible to many people because unless someone is both paying attention to this and skilled enough to assess the impact of the item choice, the impact is basically invisible. Meaningful item choices should be centered around the items' unique specific utility toward playing a certain way in a given game, not just maximizing character sheet DPS. Right, and if every AP item, to use our examples, had some amount of AP on it, and then a different utility statistic, you could make those sorts of choices. And largely they do and it's pretty good. The two items that crowd it out are Deathcap and Void Staff. Deathcap is just dumb because it only provides AP and not AP + some not-AP utility. Void Staff is dumb because the intention is for it to combat enemies buying lots of MR items, but the reality is when you do the math, it's often the best damage item in all situations regardless of target MR. What this means is that in most AP builds, you often only have like two slots for your interesting utility, which means you're really hamstringed in what to buy and it often ends up being Zhonya + something else. And unfortunately, the case for Zhonya is largely made because of how well it works with the Deathcap passive since it gives so much AP. If Deathcap was removed and Void Staff rebalanced to more appropriately work as an anti-tank item, suddenly you've got all sorts of room where the choices between things like Lich Bane, Morello, Banner of Command, Liandry, Abyssal, Twin Shadows and whateverthefuckelse all become meaningful. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On May 02 2014 12:20 TheYango wrote: I would argue that Athene's is similar in that it was not designed to match a certain type of game state or gameplay pattern, but rather solely existed "because some champs need it". It provides a hodgepodge of stats, but none of them really influence your play in a specific way other than the passive giving a shitload of mana to people that need a shitload of mana. I'd say that is just a symptom of the real problem, which is manaless champions, who would make many mana using champions obsolete in the midlane if Athenes was not in the game. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
Auras: Bad Summons: not supported / bad Scythe or Euul's equivalent: obviously toxic Lothar's equivalent: lol we have a stasis item, we have multiple slowing items, as well as grevious wounds items, maybe add a blind active? is that even fair with how bad auto attack heroes have it vs. ap at the moment? This just reminds me of how annoying it is that Shurelya is attached to gp10. man just think of how interesting Force staff would be in this game, like imagine force staffing your fed darius foreword so he can get a hook on the back line, but ofc that would be toxic as fuck and we can't have it. | ||
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