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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On May 02 2014 07:18 TheYango wrote: Or we could, you know, not treat item selection like it's something that stays fixed from game to game. Are you even playing the right game? | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Which shouldn't take too long, because Olaf dies super fast without building a lot of tankiness and is a lot less scary if he goes full tank now, so reaching an equilibrium is alot harder and he falls off hard past midgame. Ryze is fine because you don't see many mages top, and even then he's sturdier than most of them against ganks I'd say, since it's a long lane. Otherwise we could say "Renekton is countered by Kennen and Lissandra" but it's not like the chances of seeing them are high. He's vulnerable to ganks against high damage champions with gap closers like Jax or Renekton if they get to snowball on him though (or in Jax's case, reach the point where he can start fighting you faster). Irelia also has a good match-up against him (but then again, the other guy's playing Irelia, so you just don't feed her into midgame snowball and you just win through outscaling). | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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Frudgey
Canada3367 Posts
If any of you fine people have tips on how to get past the early game as Nasus, that'd be much appreciated. I'm having some difficulties myself. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On May 02 2014 09:39 Frudgey wrote: Speaking of Toplane match ups, how does one get past Nasus's early game without straight up dying? If any of you fine people have tips on how to get past the early game as Nasus, that'd be much appreciated. I'm having some difficulties myself. Just play safe and give up some caster minions. Depends on the match up, really. | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
On May 02 2014 09:39 Frudgey wrote: Speaking of Toplane match ups, how does one get past Nasus's early game without straight up dying? If any of you fine people have tips on how to get past the early game as Nasus, that'd be much appreciated. I'm having some difficulties myself. there is not a lot we can say unless you give us some specific matchups that give you problems. Basically nasus early game is best described as "can you manage to last hit properly under turret". The only way to play him safe is to let yourselve be pushed in (and whatever you do, don't make a major mistake in lane management, if your opponent gets a freeze near his turret from level 3-5 your basically fucked). Against some specific lanes you can lane decently at the start by taking the right runes and item start (renek e.g. cannot really kill if you if you start cloth5pots and take a heavy armor runepage). If you want more precise tips on a specific matchup you'll have to give us more information  | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On May 02 2014 06:53 GrandInquisitor wrote: I feel like Swain, Karthus, and a few other AP mids have this thing going where people can just argue endlessly over the "right" build, because you can make an argument for just about every single AP item (Rylai's, Liandry's, Rabadon's, Athene's, Abyssal, Hourglass, Rod of Ages, etc.) on them. I'd like to take this time to talk about something I don't like about AP items. I think Deathcap is a stupid item. Basically, most of the AP items I think are really good. Some of them are possibly too strong (Athenes, Athenes and also Athenes), but basically what all of them do is give you AP, plus some secondary statistic that isn't directly related to your damage. They give some defensive statistic, some item active, or some utility statistic like Rylais slow or magic pen etc. What this means is that, ideally if they're balanced well, every single one of them is viable on most AP champions in a specific situation. Deathcap however doesn't give any secondary statistic. It only gives AP. And I feel like that's kind of boring. Ideally every other AP item has that unique situation where you want it in your item list, but Deathcap just gives damage. Further, the Deathcap passive adding multiplicative scaling on your AP, means you almost always want a Deathcap somewhere in your build. I know there are some AP mids who never get a Deathcap in normal games, but it's a very small number of champions. If you want a big AP damage build, you're likely getting a Deathcap. What this means is that Deathcap is limiting item build choices, because your build always has to, at some point of the game, include a Deathcap, which is not giving you any interesting or cool secondary statistics to meet an individual situation, it's just giving you a huge AP boost. Void Staff kind of does the same thing, but Riot has said they want to tackle Void Staff / LW at some point, I'm guessing after they introduce larger rune changes in season 5 or something. I think AP itemization would be much more interesting and fun if Deathcap were just removed, and every champion who popularly builds Deathcap had their AP ratios increased by 10-20% to compensate. Unfortunately, that would probably be too large a balance change affecting too many champions for it to ever happen at this point. | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On May 02 2014 10:03 Ketara wrote: I'd like to take this time to talk about something I don't like about AP items. I think Deathcap is a stupid item. Basically, most of the AP items I think are really good. Some of them are possibly too strong (Athenes, Athenes and also Athenes), but basically what all of them do is give you AP, plus some secondary statistic that isn't directly related to your damage. They give some defensive statistic, some item active, or some utility statistic like Rylais slow or magic pen etc. What this means is that, ideally if they're balanced well, every single one of them is viable on most AP champions in a specific situation. Deathcap however doesn't give any secondary statistic. It only gives AP. And I feel like that's kind of boring. Ideally every other AP item has that unique situation where you want it in your item list, but Deathcap just gives damage. Further, the Deathcap passive adding multiplicative scaling on your AP, means you almost always want a Deathcap somewhere in your build. I know there are some AP mids who never get a Deathcap in normal games, but it's a very small number of champions. If you want a big AP damage build, you're likely getting a Deathcap. What this means is that Deathcap is limiting item build choices, because your build always has to, at some point of the game, include a Deathcap, which is not giving you any interesting or cool secondary statistics to meet an individual situation, it's just giving you a huge AP boost. Void Staff kind of does the same thing, but Riot has said they want to tackle Void Staff / LW at some point, I'm guessing after they introduce larger rune changes in season 5 or something. I think AP itemization would be much more interesting and fun if Deathcap were just removed, and every champion who popularly builds Deathcap had their AP ratios increased by 10-20% to compensate. Unfortunately, that would probably be too large a balance change affecting too many champions for it to ever happen at this point. Or another option would be to put the damage amp on a bunch of different items but have none of them stack with each other. Like how crit currently works as an autoattacking multiplier. (as in there are a lot of crit items, not that crit doesn't stack with itself) | ||
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Frudgey
Canada3367 Posts
The reason why I haven't given you guys match up specifics is because I suck as Nasus at all match ups haha. Two recent ones that crushed me were a Zac(!) and a Yasuo. For Nasus do I want to get pushed into my tower as soon as possible? Because what usually ends up happening is that if I go into the middle of the lane to CS they enemy jerk hits me in the face. Me not wanting to take any of his sass, I smack him right back. The problem is though, at least I think, is that I lose trades with most people because all I have (early game at least) to trade with people is my Q. Sure I can use my other spells, but if I use them too many times early on I just run out of mana. I think part of my problem though is I might not be running good runes/masteries or even pick the correct starting item. Like is it standard for Nasus not to run any AD runes in his rune page? I understand that typically you want to have defensive runes and stuff, but do you guys run any AD runes? Or what runes do you use? Again, I understand that this is very match-up dependent, but any general advice would be good. If I had to think about it though, I'd say its normally the heavy AD bruisers that give me trouble and less so ranged champions. Also what masteries do you guys run? 9/21/0 or 0/21/9? Or something else? Thanks! | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Also it would be pretty cool if each raven for his ult counted as a single target spell and synergized with gunblade. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On May 02 2014 10:03 Ketara wrote: I'd like to take this time to talk about something I don't like about AP items. I think Deathcap is a stupid item. Basically, most of the AP items I think are really good. Some of them are possibly too strong (Athenes, Athenes and also Athenes), but basically what all of them do is give you AP, plus some secondary statistic that isn't directly related to your damage. They give some defensive statistic, some item active, or some utility statistic like Rylais slow or magic pen etc. What this means is that, ideally if they're balanced well, every single one of them is viable on most AP champions in a specific situation. Deathcap however doesn't give any secondary statistic. It only gives AP. And I feel like that's kind of boring. Ideally every other AP item has that unique situation where you want it in your item list, but Deathcap just gives damage. Further, the Deathcap passive adding multiplicative scaling on your AP, means you almost always want a Deathcap somewhere in your build. I know there are some AP mids who never get a Deathcap in normal games, but it's a very small number of champions. If you want a big AP damage build, you're likely getting a Deathcap. What this means is that Deathcap is limiting item build choices, because your build always has to, at some point of the game, include a Deathcap, which is not giving you any interesting or cool secondary statistics to meet an individual situation, it's just giving you a huge AP boost. Void Staff kind of does the same thing, but Riot has said they want to tackle Void Staff / LW at some point, I'm guessing after they introduce larger rune changes in season 5 or something. I think AP itemization would be much more interesting and fun if Deathcap were just removed, and every champion who popularly builds Deathcap had their AP ratios increased by 10-20% to compensate. Unfortunately, that would probably be too large a balance change affecting too many champions for it to ever happen at this point. Interesting. When I can Tune In Next Time, to what I hope is "Ketara hates Infinity Edge: A Rant" | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
vs AD: armour pen marks/flat armour seals/flat CDR glyphs/flat CDR quints vs AP: armour pen marks/5 flat armour, 4 scaling armour seals/5 flat MR, 4 scaling MR glyphs/movespeed quints Attack damage marks are also good, as are armour or lifesteal quints. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
First is giving turrets ammo that slowly recharges, which really lets me feel like I can punish early with pushing, which for some heroes is what you feel you need to do. Second is the multitude of ways to break sieges in both directions. Merc camps are an interesting addition, although I'm not sold on some of the, for lack of a better word, "super" objectives which make pushes ridiculously strong for often small investments. Third is the daily quests, which, for now, are much more engaging than just the generic FWOTD (again, for now). I dont know if it can be a successful competitive game because of the multitude of maps which cause significant changes in what champions are viable. But for now its novel and fun. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On May 02 2014 10:39 xes wrote: Interesting. When I can Tune In Next Time, to what I hope is "Ketara hates Infinity Edge: A Rant" IE is pretty fucking dumb too, lets be honest. It's not as bad as Deathcap tho. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On May 02 2014 10:56 Ketara wrote: IE is pretty fucking dumb too, lets be honest. It's not as bad as Deathcap tho. Deathcap has some ok competition with Zhonyas and DFG as a core item in addition to Athenes/Nomicon. IE is just straight up the best item for an ADC to buy. Static Shiv? -> IE works with it Trinity? -> IE works with it BotRK? -> IE works with it BT LW? -> get AS and then get IE. I'm glad that you're coming around to the idea that itemization in League is pretty bland and garbage though. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
What this means is that it allows you to have a scenario where you DON'T get the Zhonya or DFG in favor of some other item. Now, for some champions this isn't going to be the case. You'll be hard pressed to find a game where, for example, Fizz doesn't buy a Lich Bane. But we're talking about an individual champion in that case, whereas Deathcap is in your max damage item build on basically all AP champions. If you aren't getting a Deathcap, it's because your champion is so squishy that they can't afford an all damage build, and there aren't many champions where that is normal. Cassiopeia and Ryze maybe, stuff like that. If you're 15/0 on Cass, you're probably buying Deathcap anyway. IE isn't as bad as Deathcap because it doesn't apply to every single AD champion all of the time, since its damage boost is focused around autoattacking. It mostly applies to ADC's, who are just one particular subset of AD champions, and even then it's mostly ranged ADCs, because melee autoattacking ADs largely can't afford to build it unless you're Yasuo or really fed, in the same way Cassiopeia can't always afford to buy the Deathcap. But if we're talking strictly about ranged ADCs, I would definitely say IE is a problem item. All it does is boost damage and it has to be in every single build. I wouldn't say that itemization in League is pretty bland and garbage, what I would say is that there are a couple problem items that are crowding out other possibilities. Athenes, Deathcap, Void/LW, IE etc are good examples. If I'm required to have Athenes, Deathcap and Void Staff and boots in every Lux build, I still have interesting item variation after that, I just have it in two slots instead of five. Athenes will probably always be core on her, but if Deathcap didn't exist and Void Staff were properly balanced to only be good vs. tanks and not also good vs. squishies, suddenly I'd have a LOT of possible build orders with us only changing two items out of 17 big AP items. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
I mean to say like if you are presented with A)getting a lot of utility vs. B)getting maximum damage I think dcap is ok, but right now max damage is almost always worth, and mages (heal) being popular exasterbate that | ||
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Neverhood
United States5388 Posts
I wonder who they were trying to buyout from NA...has to be shiphtur right? | ||
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Gahlo
United States35165 Posts
On May 02 2014 11:15 Neverhood wrote: http://www.ongamers.com/articles/clg-confirms-seraph-as-leading-candidate-for-top-lane-will-tryout-at-the-clg-team-house/1100-1340/ I wonder who they were trying to buyout from NA...has to be shiphtur right? Well, there's only 2 relegated top lanes from NA. 1 is Zion, the other is retired. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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