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On May 02 2014 12:20 TheYango wrote:
I would argue that Athene's is similar in that it was not designed to match a certain type of game state or gameplay pattern, but rather solely existed "because some champs need it". It provides a hodgepodge of stats, but none of them really influence your play in a specific way other than the passive giving a shitload of mana to people that need a shitload of mana.
Yes I think Athenes is also a problem item. But I think the solution to Athenes is not necessarily to change the item into something different, but to change the champions it's propping up by no longer having this situation where the current super stat efficient Athenes MUST exist in order to make these champions worth playing.
After these champions are changed you can just nerf Athenes so it doesn't have to be so core on them.
We've had this discussion before though.
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kinda sad that my free elo tristana helped me from g4 to g1 then start losing 5 games in a row to plats, if games went 30 mins everytime i would get diamond already LOL
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On May 02 2014 10:30 Frudgey wrote:
Okay thanks for the Nasus tips.
The reason why I haven't given you guys match up specifics is because I suck as Nasus at all match ups haha. Two recent ones that crushed me were a Zac(!) and a Yasuo.
For Nasus do I want to get pushed into my tower as soon as possible? Because what usually ends up happening is that if I go into the middle of the lane to CS they enemy jerk hits me in the face. Me not wanting to take any of his sass, I smack him right back.
The problem is though, at least I think, is that I lose trades with most people because all I have (early game at least) to trade with people is my Q. Sure I can use my other spells, but if I use them too many times early on I just run out of mana.
I think part of my problem though is I might not be running good runes/masteries or even pick the correct starting item. Like is it standard for Nasus not to run any AD runes in his rune page? I understand that typically you want to have defensive runes and stuff, but do you guys run any AD runes? Or what runes do you use?
Again, I understand that this is very match-up dependent, but any general advice would be good. If I had to think about it though, I'd say its normally the heavy AD bruisers that give me trouble and less so ranged champions.
Also what masteries do you guys run? 9/21/0 or 0/21/9? Or something else?
Thanks!
I run a few AD runes just to help a little with last hitting with Q a bit better and easier but once it gets up to a certain points the AD becomes irrelevant. The rest of my runes are flat MR runes and armor scaling Armor runes and 2 Armor Quints and a AD quint because why not. The last batch of runes I run are CD reduction scaling runes which I run about 5 of them because your Nasus and all you care about is late game and stacks. The masteries I run is 1/29/0 because I like being really tanky and I don't really need the CD because of my runes and I'm eventually gonna be building CDR in the first place. I have 1 in CD in the Offense tree because that 1 mastery I forget what its called but I think its "self healing",correct me if I'm wrong. Its that mastery that increases healing done to yourself and whatnot when your below 25%. I don't find much use for it so might as well put the last remaining point in CD.
Because I'm 1/29/0 I don't get pushed in as hard depending on the matchup and I'm always attacking minions to get them low enough for stacks. I tend to not get pushed in as much because I'm not afraid of ganks and am confident in my ability of getting away if a gank should happen. So, I tend to usually try to keep the lane either in the middle or a little bit on my side but not near the tower. If I'm on red side I always try to get double golems whenever possible but if I can't then its not the end of the world. The faster you get your stacks the the sooner that you will be able to trade alot of damage.
Your main priority as Nasus is to get stacks and not trading in the early parts of the game. When you get enough then you can trade.
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It's not THAT hard to imagine a world where Athene's isn't the default first item. The game has just evolved (been pushed) in such a way that unless both teams want to fight, most of the midgame is realistically going to be about shoving lanes to jockey for map position or sieging, and Athene's is far and away the best item at doing both of those things. That it's also the best item for sitting in lane and farming doesn't hurt it any.
We've had lots of metagames in which this was not true (or at least not figured out), though, and Athene's was not auto-buy in them. I don't know how likely we are to see one again, though, as it's unclear to me whether sieging is the best play because that's the natural game evolution or if balance patches have pushed the game that way.
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The best item would still be a combination of executioner's calling and sword of the divine
but in seriousness, item diversification in lol has a few problems that exist outside of the individual items. I think the biggest is that Slot efficiency doesn't really exist in LoL.
In LoL there no longer exists items around 2k that give signficantly better value than the riot-approved lategame power scaling role items. This is both due to a lack of interesting items at that level as well as the overall monetary structure of the game. The number of games in which players become 5 or 6 slotted is simply too frequent to even risk going an item that you'll sell later. With that, and the 100% mandatory LW/VS on every damaging champion past the midgame, there really aren't that many item slots to even consider.
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On May 02 2014 10:03 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 06:53 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I feel like Swain, Karthus, and a few other AP mids have this thing going where people can just argue endlessly over the "right" build, because you can make an argument for just about every single AP item (Rylai's, Liandry's, Rabadon's, Athene's, Abyssal, Hourglass, Rod of Ages, etc.) on them. Deathcap however doesn't give any secondary statistic. It only gives AP. And I feel like that's kind of boring. Ideally every other AP item has that unique situation where you want it in your item list, but Deathcap just gives damage. ... Void Staff kind of does the same thing, but Riot has said they want to tackle Void Staff / LW at some point, I'm guessing after they introduce larger rune changes in season 5 or something.
This isn't completely true. Deathcap also (moreso than anything else) increases the power of AP-scaling non-damage abilities, primarily shields and whatever they gave AP-scaling supports, which gives it some degree of differentiation from Void Staff. I often find the champions that I want deathcap the fastest on are champions with somesuch utility (ex/ Karma, Lulu).
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When you get it isn't really the issue. The issue is that it's in the build for basically all APs in all builds at some point. Some champs don't get Deathcap till their last item, they still get one eventually. This fact coupled with the fact that it only gives AP (so it can't be arguably replaced with something else providing a different kind of utility) crowds out other item choices.
If Deathcap just gave 160-180 AP instead of having the +30% AP passive it would be a lot easier to argue against it for some champions with some item builds. As is though it's just this perfect storm of bullshit.
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Shit's going down at the TSM house. Don't know what though.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 02 2014 15:30 Gahlo wrote:
Shit's going down at the TSM house. Don't know what though.
Good to know
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On May 02 2014 15:30 Gahlo wrote:
Shit's going down at the TSM house. Don't know what though.
I concluded from bjergsen's face is that xpecial killed wildturtle. Rest in pepperonis TSM cat
Or all of their faces when they realise CLG has a Korean now
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Xpecial off TSM.
Calling it.
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On May 02 2014 15:30 Gahlo wrote:
Shit's going down at the TSM house. Don't know what though.
Probably 1 of two things
Oddone surprise retirement, or xspecial is off TSM. Only things that are really possible.
Or Oddone got hit by a bus, but thats way less likely.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On May 02 2014 16:18 ParadeofMadness wrote:
Xpecial off TSM.
Calling it.
What's really happening is xpecial has decided to retire to pursue his new career as a top line philosopher, he will collaberate with migxa to create the deepest, most meaningful and most ESPORTS book ever.
It will be called "Life, the journey through life"
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On May 02 2014 16:22 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 15:30 Gahlo wrote:
Shit's going down at the TSM house. Don't know what though. Probably 1 of two things Oddone surprise retirement, or xspecial is off TSM. Only things that are really possible. Or Oddone got hit by a bus, but thats way less likely.
Or something happened to Bjergsen's dog, considering the dude was on the verge of tears.
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lol what if 5 years down the line, we have esports paparazzi and tabloids..
bunch of fedora wearing cameramen following skinny gamers around.
I can see the headlines in my mind...
Doublelift's new Chick! Rumored 5 some in CLG Mansion!
TSM Zorozero kicked for fucking Leena!
Liquid112's all-chinese Curse squad on strike over sweatshop pay allegations!
C9 expands to CandyCrush Saga!
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On May 02 2014 16:10 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 15:30 Gahlo wrote:
Shit's going down at the TSM house. Don't know what though. I concluded from bjergsen's face is that xpecial killed wildturtle. Rest in pepperonis TSM cat Or all of their faces when they realise CLG has a Korean now
It's ok, Regi will hire Madlife to make up for it.
TSM Madlife, calling it now.
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Uh... so Ketara criticises deathcap for "always being best" then 3 posts later admits that in a bunch of situation (namely: about any when opponents have over 40 MR and you rely on damaging spells) void staff is actually better without batting an eye.
On May 02 2014 13:30 Kupon3ss wrote:
but in seriousness, item diversification in lol has a few problems that exist outside of the individual items. I think the biggest is that Slot efficiency doesn't really exist in LoL.
In LoL there no longer exists items around 2k that give signficantly better value than the riot-approved lategame power scaling role items. This is both due to a lack of interesting items at that level as well as the overall monetary structure of the game. The number of games in which players become 5 or 6 slotted is simply too frequent to even risk going an item that you'll sell later. With that, and the 100% mandatory LW/VS on every damaging champion past the midgame, there really aren't that many item slots to even consider.
There used to be some of these items, namely Hexdrinker, Haunting Guise and Chalice, but Riot decided that "players don't feel good about buying items that are stuck into dead-ends, so we're giving them upgrades in the hope that it makes them more popular".
+ Show Spoiler +Galio was about the only champion buying Chalice pre-Grail, but to be fair:
1- as a melee he relied heavily on spells to last hit and counter enemy pushing
2- his mana costs were indeed high
3- even if mana costs were higher at the time, blue buff was stronger (both regen and CDR) and you weren't plagued with so many manaless champions.
Now there are other champions legitimately requiring the Chalice passive, though they're mainly supports (Sona, Nami, case can be made for Lulu or Alistar), but other than that the main point of Grail is to offset the blue nerfs (which weren't bad by themselves: blue still had value, and mids didn't rely on it as a crutch, building around always having blue vastly differing from "normal" builds) and to give CDR (a lot of popular champions like Ziggs, Lulu (designed as a support so loads of utility), Nidalee benefit from it, and Orianna has it as a core stat seeing how her gameplay is centered around the ball's mobility through Q).
A similar case could be made for Guise, used by Rumble (although that had a bunch to do with his retarded-ass base values) and a bit before Liandry's in a lot of "penetration builds" (Katarina, Elise notably).
Hexdrinker had more success in s2 as a laning item, but you routinely bought Wriggle's in top lane to help with your pushing and give you sustain, so getting a bunch of mid-range items (usually 2 of brutaliser/wriggle's/hexdrinker depending on the state of the lane and your opponent) was a common sight.
Arguably Tiamat wouldn't be bought by non-sustain champions (eg. only by Renekton) without the Hydra upgrade, despite the rework buff.
I think Riot approached it the wrong way, thinking "these items aren't popular because weak" meant "give them an upgrade/slot-efficiency" over "make them more powerful/cost-efficient but still dead-end". I think it's too bad IE doesn't compete with BT anymore, although we still kind of have a split between BT-BotRK-IE I guess.
The powerspike of finishing items like BotRK or Trinity definitely pushed away the "midrange builds" top though, we barely see any brutaliser, and nerfing vamp scepter along with the competition of Tiamat shoved BT away for AD casters (BT Pantheon or Wukong was hard to reach but hilarious).
Abyssal I could see using a price reduction to make it more appealing and concentrate the price into the aura. However you'd have to either nerf the MR (makes tanks sad, and the item even more niche versus BV or SV) or the AP (makes mages sad). I guess you need to really decide what role the item is supposed to fill and stick to it.
Food for thought: in the great fight for slot-efficiency vs cost-efficiency, Null-Magic Mantle and Cloth Armour illustrate the problem as these basic components don't build into anything useful anymore apart from boots (chalice or Seeker's for AP but you usually back with the full gold anyway or you buy the AP first for Seeker's). Shroud is trash in-slot with half the cost being mana (eg. putting you behind 400+ gold in the early game), Wit's End isn't cost-effective enough for how slot-ineffective it is (needs a large money gap where you can use it before your opponent finishes his first item).
It's like they want to tell you "get fucked" if you're low on gold and trying to buy something cheap to stop being slaughtered.
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Please Alaric, make it stop  .
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EPT
