EPTOne day all of my posts will look like this.
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
I'm meaning this one, short and sweet one-liner to anyone not opening the spoiler, but if you misunderstod as "the one above" and got scared I'm fine with it too.
[Patch 4.6] Twitch VU General Discussion - Page 99
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
Something like Aghs would be fun in LoL. Open up the playstyles in champions. Currently the only champions I can think of that you can actually play in different ways are Kog'Maw (RIP AP Kog though) and Trist (AP/AD). Most others, even though they can be played in different roles, will just be played the same way. A Karma will still spam Q for damage and try to root enemies and shield friends. A support Karma vs an AP Karma has basically no difference except for the amount of damage she does. Same even goes for things like Nid AP vs AD. Champ design is just as big of a problem as item design. Though item design is probably easier to fix. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On May 02 2014 19:19 Doctorbeat wrote: It's not just the itemization imo, most of the champions have the same problem as in they do not allow for multiple ways to be played. Something like Aghs would be fun in LoL. Open up the playstyles in champions. Currently the only champions I can think of that you can actually play in different ways are Kog'Maw (RIP AP Kog though) and Trist (AP/AD). Most others, even though they can be played in different roles, will just be played the same way. A Karma will still spam Q for damage and try to root enemies and shield friends. A support Karma vs an AP Karma has basically no difference except for the amount of damage she does. Same even goes for things like Nid AP vs AD. Champ design is just as big of a problem as item design. Though item design is probably easier to fix. A lot of champions can go either tank, or damage, and play very differently as a result. Especially junglers like lee, nocturne etc, can either go tanky frontline, and rely on being the main initiaters, getting into the middle of the fight at the start, peeling for their backline and soaking up damage. Or they can go damage (assassin lee/bullet nocturne) and have a totally different playstyle, where you hang around the edges of fights until an opening onto one of the squishies appears, and then you dive in, try and burst them down, then try and escape again. Those are pretty dramatically different play patterns based solely off itemisation. feral flare has slightly blurred those lines by letting people get a lot of damage, and a lot of sustain, off only one item, but with the heal nerf coming through the balance should be vaguely restored again. Some other examples, teemo can go full ap, for burst and uber shrooms, or tanky bruiser-ish. Ali can go tanky support, for peel and tanking, or he can go ap for oneshotting-burst. Malphite can go tanky for initation/tankiness, or ap for hardcore assassination. And then there are all the champions which have the semi-trolly ap versions, like amumu. Sure they aren't really "viable" but they do definitely change play patterns and how you want to position in fights. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On May 02 2014 19:29 Alaric wrote: AD Nidalee is kinda dead anyway because Riot buffed her cougar ratios and the execute on Takedown is so strong that it doesn't matter that it's physical damage, so AP Nidalee does more damage in cougar form than AD Nidalee, and you aren't exactly tanky anymore. Isn't ad nid basically played for the insane split pushing? heal buff + ad items kills towers pretty crazily fast into racecar-ing away, and against people with 40% hp, the q has a 240% flat ad ad ratio, hardly anything to sniff at. She is kind of just outclassed 1v1 by a fair few other split-pushing champions now though  | ||
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
On May 02 2014 19:26 killerdog wrote: A lot of champions can go either tank, or damage, and play very differently as a result. Especially junglers like lee, nocturne etc, can either go tanky frontline, and rely on being the main initiaters, getting into the middle of the fight at the start, peeling for their backline and soaking up damage. Or they can go damage (assassin lee/bullet nocturne) and have a totally different playstyle, where you hang around the edges of fights until an opening onto one of the squishies appears, and then you dive in, try and burst them down, then try and escape again. Those are pretty dramatically different play patterns based solely off itemisation. feral flare has slightly blurred those lines by letting people get a lot of damage, and a lot of sustain, off only one item, but with the heal nerf coming through the balance should be vaguely restored again. Honestly what is the difference between AD Noc and bruiser/tank Noc? In both you have an ideal target you will go for, and that target is the same for both (Highest value, most of the time ADC/AP), you get your Q and E off and try to block cc with W. The only difference I can see is that AD Noc waits and bruiser Noc initiates. Imo the two playstyles don't feel that different. Meanwhile the difference between AP and AD Kog or Trist is huge. Your playstyle changes dramatically, your skill usage changes, which buff suits you best changes, etc. Another thing I forgot to mention is that DotA skills don't scale with stats. Ergo you can buy int as a str or agi hero without too much of a sacrifice, as long as the item fits your needs. Buying a high AP/AD item when you scale with the other stat is too slot inefficient, because the stats make up way more of the gold cost. So you see very little items that anyone can buy for utility (Randuin, GA, BV), because buying a Zhonya's as a AD Caster like Zed or Talon would just slow your damage curve by way too much, even though the active is super useful. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On May 02 2014 19:41 Doctorbeat wrote: Honestly what is the difference between AD Noc and bruiser/tank Noc? In both you have an ideal target you will go for, and that target is the same for both (Highest value, most of the time ADC/AP), you get your Q and E off and try to block cc with W. The only difference I can see is that AD Noc waits and bruiser Noc initiates. Imo the two playstyles don't feel that different. Maybe noc is a slightly bad example right now, because with feral flare you can go full tank and still just burst people (same with a lot of junglers actually now ), but look at champions like lee. Are you trying to tell me that tank lee and damage lee don't feel completely different to play in teamfights, positioning and targeting wise? | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On May 02 2014 19:38 killerdog wrote: Isn't ad nid basically played for the insane split pushing? heal buff + ad items kills towers pretty crazily fast into racecar-ing away, and against people with 40% hp, the q has a 240% flat ad ad ratio, hardly anything to sniff at. She is kind of just outclassed 1v1 by a fair few other split-pushing champions now though I feel like ad nid is in the same spot as singed. If you get ahead (ganks or outplay), you dominate your lane all by yourself, but if you go even or struggle, you're mediocre at best with an ally team that is forced to do 4v4/4v5 on their own while you try to recover, only to get a late-game that is weaker than Jax/Ryze, who are arguably the top 2 contenders atm. | ||
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RouaF
France4120 Posts
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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
Hear me out on this crazy theory thats slightly related to your post: What if people were so used to, for months/years that you can win lane, be a retard and try to do something dumb like 1v4 at drag or mid or something equally dumb and die, and then be like "LOLOLOL SO TROELL!!1 tiem 2 start actuaklly plaeying teh gaem11!! xDDD" (oftentimes happens more than once) and now you need to actually.. wait for it... HOLD YOUR LEAD BY PLAYING LIKE A PROPER HUMAN FUCKING BEING AND NOT BEING DUMB. Although I can't really hold a lot of the playerbase accountable, the attitude of non-asian servers is just so god damn trolly at the top that people watch streams and see this kind of shit going on, and people that are really good like wildturtle or someone do stuff like that and try to be like that, but they dont realize that they're NOT fucking wildturtle and you might not realize it because a lot of that though process is sub-conscious (nobody actually thinks they're wildturtle's skill level obviously) so instead they complain about shit like anti-snowball and s4 changes and all that shit. Maybe that's just my extremely jaded view of things though. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Celial
2602 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On May 02 2014 18:20 Alaric wrote: Uh... so Ketara criticises deathcap for "always being best" then 3 posts later admits that in a bunch of situation (namely: about any when opponents have over 40 MR and you rely on damaging spells) void staff is actually better without batting an eye. There used to be some of these items, namely Hexdrinker, Haunting Guise and Chalice, but Riot decided that "players don't feel good about buying items that are stuck into dead-ends, so we're giving them upgrades in the hope that it makes them more popular". + Show Spoiler + Galio was about the only champion buying Chalice pre-Grail, but to be fair: 1- as a melee he relied heavily on spells to last hit and counter enemy pushing 2- his mana costs were indeed high 3- even if mana costs were higher at the time, blue buff was stronger (both regen and CDR) and you weren't plagued with so many manaless champions. Now there are other champions legitimately requiring the Chalice passive, though they're mainly supports (Sona, Nami, case can be made for Lulu or Alistar), but other than that the main point of Grail is to offset the blue nerfs (which weren't bad by themselves: blue still had value, and mids didn't rely on it as a crutch, building around always having blue vastly differing from "normal" builds) and to give CDR (a lot of popular champions like Ziggs, Lulu (designed as a support so loads of utility), Nidalee benefit from it, and Orianna has it as a core stat seeing how her gameplay is centered around the ball's mobility through Q). A similar case could be made for Guise, used by Rumble (although that had a bunch to do with his retarded-ass base values) and a bit before Liandry's in a lot of "penetration builds" (Katarina, Elise notably). Hexdrinker had more success in s2 as a laning item, but you routinely bought Wriggle's in top lane to help with your pushing and give you sustain, so getting a bunch of mid-range items (usually 2 of brutaliser/wriggle's/hexdrinker depending on the state of the lane and your opponent) was a common sight. Arguably Tiamat wouldn't be bought by non-sustain champions (eg. only by Renekton) without the Hydra upgrade, despite the rework buff. I think Riot approached it the wrong way, thinking "these items aren't popular because weak" meant "give them an upgrade/slot-efficiency" over "make them more powerful/cost-efficient but still dead-end". I think it's too bad IE doesn't compete with BT anymore, although we still kind of have a split between BT-BotRK-IE I guess. The powerspike of finishing items like BotRK or Trinity definitely pushed away the "midrange builds" top though, we barely see any brutaliser, and nerfing vamp scepter along with the competition of Tiamat shoved BT away for AD casters (BT Pantheon or Wukong was hard to reach but hilarious). Abyssal I could see using a price reduction to make it more appealing and concentrate the price into the aura. However you'd have to either nerf the MR (makes tanks sad, and the item even more niche versus BV or SV) or the AP (makes mages sad). I guess you need to really decide what role the item is supposed to fill and stick to it. Food for thought: in the great fight for slot-efficiency vs cost-efficiency, Null-Magic Mantle and Cloth Armour illustrate the problem as these basic components don't build into anything useful anymore apart from boots (chalice or Seeker's for AP but you usually back with the full gold anyway or you buy the AP first for Seeker's). Shroud is trash in-slot with half the cost being mana (eg. putting you behind 400+ gold in the early game), Wit's End isn't cost-effective enough for how slot-ineffective it is (needs a large money gap where you can use it before your opponent finishes his first item). It's like they want to tell you "get fucked" if you're low on gold and trying to buy something cheap to stop being slaughtered. You should be careful when you quote people, nowhere did I say deathcap is "always being best". I said you always have to buy it. Difference. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Zhonya pretty much always gets bought too because it's tied for highest flat AP and packs a ton of utility, Randuin's is always bought on a tanky champion except against double AP (and even then... ), etc. And you should be careful when quoting people too, that's quite the wall of text considering only 5 lines were involved there.  | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On May 02 2014 22:09 Celial wrote: I'm at work, whats happening at TSM? Can't find anything on reddit. All i saw was dyrus having to mute his stream for 4-5 minutes while they had a "team discussion" or something, dunno if anything got caught on anyone else's streams. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Omnishroud
1073 Posts
On May 02 2014 23:17 obesechicken13 wrote: Hey guys. Popping in for a quick question. Does smite still give you gold for last hits? On May 02 2014 23:22 Sufficiency wrote: Only if Smite kills the target. :D sorry, i chuckled. At what point is a last hit not a kill, one wonders. | ||
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