|
|
On March 09 2014 02:13 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 01:58 Slusher wrote:
a typical damage building Lee Sin (BC/HY/LW) will lose about ~140) damage on E before mr.
not really a counter argument just putting that out there if anyone wants to do the mr math (because I don't lel) First of all, it's not a loss of 140. Lets say we're going BC, Hydra, LW and a Lizard stone on a jungle Lee. 224.26 bonus AD after runes and masteries. So our old Lee with AD runes and our new Lee with Arpen runes are going to do this damage with E: Old Lee: 424.26 magic New Lee: 324.71 phys So a loss of 100. Lets assume our target is an ADC with a GA. I'll use a level 18 Jinx as an example. After counting pen, the actual damage will be: Old Lee: 236.31 magic New Lee: 205.54 phys with zero BC stacks, 227.29 phys with 5 BC stacks. So, roughly equivalent damage on a low resistances target, perhaps a small nerf. Against anybody building tanky it'll end up doing more damage than it would before. I don't know what a typical end game Lee build is (they vary), but I imagine if you were looking at tanky with a LW as a single damage item, you're gonna like this change.
Yes, because Lee Sin with a huge gap close is going to want to use his Cripple on bruisers, who AA plenty, right?
|
And ffs Ketara stop running around yelling it's a buff because 12k gold level 18 Lee Sin does 20 more damage if he uses ArPen runes. Numbers won't change the nature of his kit, so he's still going to fall off later on, which means the emphasis is still on his early game, which has been nerfed. Are you going to try and deny that too?
People have already called you out for throwing numbers into a vacuum and waving around unrealistic contexts to try and justify your cases.
|
On March 09 2014 02:08 wei2coolman wrote:Does all this extra AS excuse me to build IE+atmogs now? Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 02:00 Numy wrote:On March 09 2014 01:50 dae wrote:
Personally, I like the Lee changes.
When your playing vs a lee sin, and your playing a squishy mid without and escape, and lee gets 1 or 2 kills from other lanes, if he decides to gank you mid, and plays it well, you are dead. There is literally nothing you can really do to prevent him from ward jumping, flashing behind you, and kicking you to your death.
You could just you know ward and position better? Most junglers that people play now if they get fed kill or 2 can do that early on. Also this, a trillion times. wukong has invis approach, eve has similar. Vi has strong knockback gap closer, pantheon has point and click stun, etc etc. Lee Sin isn't the only one with gap close
Lee is the only one with a displacement skill. Even with boots 2 you need over 4 seconds to walk back to where you were before the kick.
|
to be fair my numbers were wrong, I had forgotten the base ad/bonus ad change so I kinda started it.
although he did stack the deck with arp runes, which is more damage for either build thats not why you don't run them. I guess in this case it benefits me though.
|
No it's definitely an early game nerf, and the Safeguard change might be a pretty big deal.
I just think the damage tweaks are much less end of the world than you guys seem to think. I would call the posted numbers small changes, aside from the Safeguard change.
And in regards to my credibility in these matters, remember back when Sivir got reworked and you guys were all posting that her Ricochet and ult changes were huge nerfs before she came out and I said they were actually buffs and nobody believed me?
Because I remember that, I still think it's pretty funny 
|
I remember her base AS being 0.625 at one point in that rework too. She's also not picked for her damage.
|
if adcs were doing s2/s3 damage Sivir would dissapear from the meta.
her ult is just really good in a meta where ult bot adc is acceptable
|
On March 09 2014 02:29 NpG)Explosive wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 02:08 wei2coolman wrote:Does all this extra AS excuse me to build IE+atmogs now? On March 09 2014 02:00 Numy wrote:On March 09 2014 01:50 dae wrote:
Personally, I like the Lee changes.
When your playing vs a lee sin, and your playing a squishy mid without and escape, and lee gets 1 or 2 kills from other lanes, if he decides to gank you mid, and plays it well, you are dead. There is literally nothing you can really do to prevent him from ward jumping, flashing behind you, and kicking you to your death.
You could just you know ward and position better? Most junglers that people play now if they get fed kill or 2 can do that early on. Also this, a trillion times. wukong has invis approach, eve has similar. Vi has strong knockback gap closer, pantheon has point and click stun, etc etc. Lee Sin isn't the only one with gap close Lee is the only one with a displacement skill. Even with boots 2 you need over 4 seconds to walk back to where you were before the kick.
The displacement is post 6, and it takes infinitely more skill for him to use his appropriately than compared to Vi. Only a handful of pros pull it off consistently.
On March 09 2014 02:30 Ketara wrote:No it's definitely an early game nerf, and the Safeguard change might be a pretty big deal. I just think the damage tweaks are much less end of the world than you guys seem to think. I would call the posted numbers small changes, aside from the Safeguard change. And in regards to my credibility in these matters, remember back when Sivir got reworked and you guys were all posting that her Ricochet and ult changes were huge nerfs before she came out and I said they were actually buffs and nobody believed me? Because I remember that, I still think it's pretty funny
She's only good, because it makes everyone else on her team good, thus acceptable for her to do way less damage.
|
On March 09 2014 02:29 Slusher wrote:
to be fair my numbers were wrong, I had forgotten the base ad/bonus ad change so I kinda started it.
although he did stack the deck with arp runes, which is more damage for either build thats not why you don't run them. I guess in this case it benefits me though.
The thing is Lee likes AD runes for early game because currently his AD ratios are super high.
If the changes go through suddenly his AD ratios aren't as high anymore, which makes arpen comparatively more attractive in the early game, while still being better in the late game because pen runes are typically better later on.
You might end up running some mix or something because if you run full Arpen it's inefficient vs. jungle camps, who knows.
|
On March 09 2014 00:52 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 00:48 Yezzus wrote:On March 09 2014 00:40 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2014 00:38 Yezzus wrote:
Lee seems in a good place but every time I watch a high elo player streamed in d1/ Challenger I see alot of Lee bans. He might be a bit too strong in the highest levels which is what Riot balances for anyway. Just because he seems fine in your silver/gold games doesn't mean he isnt a problem overall.
But I do agree that these changes suck and I do think he is perfectly fine atm. Did you just call d1 solo queue highest level of play? Yup compared to the rest of the 99% of playerbase if you look at it it is Even if you count D1 solo queue as highest level of play (which it's not), saying Riot balances at the highest levels of play (which is professional at the VERY least) is wrong. See every Shaco and/or Yi nerf in the past two seasons for evidence.
Riot doesn't SOLELY balance for the top level, but they do balance for the top level.
What bugs me is it's more of the power-curve homogenization. And the fact that they've reneged on AD casters using Bonus AD for their damage instead of base AD, which was a thing they were sweeping around changing many champs back in S2/early S3 as well as going from one to the other on new champion design.
|
I ban Renekton, they ban Vi so I take Jax, they pick Singed. D: Hadn't seen him in so long.
What can I do apart from rushing cutlass+cowl? Try to all-in him if he fucks up pre-6, cry and just group afterwards for drakes and towers while he splitpushes top?
|
Yeah the Lee changes is definitely NOT aimrd at top level play. We should be glad of this considering how many times Riot has ruined champions for an average player (I.e. non-D1+) because the said champion was discovered to be effective in organized, competitive play.
|
On March 09 2014 04:05 Sufficiency wrote:
Yeah the Lee changes is definitely NOT aimrd at top level play. We should be glad of this considering how many times Riot has ruined champions for an average player (I.e. non-D1+) because the said champion was discovered to be effective in organized, competitive play.
AKA every olaf nerf ever
|
On March 09 2014 03:58 Alaric wrote:
I ban Renekton, they ban Vi so I take Jax, they pick Singed. D: Hadn't seen him in so long.
What can I do apart from rushing cutlass+cowl? Try to all-in him if he fucks up pre-6, cry and just group afterwards for drakes and towers while he splitpushes top?
Everything I hear about Singed is people crying that cowl hard counters him. *shrugs*
Depending on the enemy team comp, it might be one of the rare situations where you want to change cutlass into a gunblade for the extra MR from the AP due to your ult.
On March 09 2014 04:06 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 04:05 Sufficiency wrote:
Yeah the Lee changes is definitely NOT aimrd at top level play. We should be glad of this considering how many times Riot has ruined champions for an average player (I.e. non-D1+) because the said champion was discovered to be effective in organized, competitive play. AKA every olaf nerf ever
And yet people bitched when they nerfed Olaf out of 1st pick/ban competitive status because his winrate in soloq was bad.
|
People are always going to bitch about just about anything.
|
Lee is highly picked in solo queue because he's fun to play, not because he's egregiously op'd.
The reason there are so many Lee Sin mains is because of how fun his kit is to play, as opposed to how strong he is.
Not that winrates mean too much in regards to balance. But for solo queue.
in the past month, Lee Sin has a below 50% winrate at Diamond level. Despite being 2nd most played champ.
|
It's also because of how versatile his kit is. You don't really have to think much about the other 9 people on the team if you're playing Lee, you'll be useful somehow.
And that's exactly what isn't really going to change, unless the Safeguard nerf really hamstrings his mobility, which it might.
|
On March 09 2014 04:18 wei2coolman wrote:
Lee is highly picked in solo queue because he's fun to play, not because he's egregiously op'd.
The reason there are so many Lee Sin mains is because of how fun his kit is to play, as opposed to how strong he is.
Yeah him being a top tier jungler and being able to carry a game has nothing to do with him getting picked lol.Him being fun is just a bonus.
On March 09 2014 04:20 Ketara wrote:
It's also because of how versatile his kit is. You don't really have to think much about the other 9 people on the team if you're playing Lee, you'll be useful somehow.
And that's exactly what isn't really going to change, unless the Safeguard nerf really hamstrings his mobility, which it might.
This is just wrong wtf.If you don't get any early pressure with lee you won't do shit compared to most of the other junglers.
|
On March 09 2014 04:21 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 04:18 wei2coolman wrote:
Lee is highly picked in solo queue because he's fun to play, not because he's egregiously op'd.
The reason there are so many Lee Sin mains is because of how fun his kit is to play, as opposed to how strong he is. Yeah him being a top tier jungler and being able to carry a game has nothing to do with him getting picked lol.Him being fun is just a bonus.
I don't know what your definition of carry is, but <50% winrate is not "carrying"
|
On March 09 2014 04:22 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 04:21 nafta wrote:On March 09 2014 04:18 wei2coolman wrote:
Lee is highly picked in solo queue because he's fun to play, not because he's egregiously op'd.
The reason there are so many Lee Sin mains is because of how fun his kit is to play, as opposed to how strong he is. Yeah him being a top tier jungler and being able to carry a game has nothing to do with him getting picked lol.Him being fun is just a bonus. I don't know what your definition of carry is, but <50% winrate is not "carrying"
Because every single champ that isn't faceroll has bad winrate in solo?Who cares about that?All junglers who smurf always go lee and just 1v9.The champ is just really good for that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
