Insecing is possible, but it's probably going to end up with you dead in exchange to do it. Before you could kite out with tempest/cripple after insecing. Now you don't have the energy to do it.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

March 08 2014 19:54 GMT

#1562

On March 09 2014 04:49 Fusilero wrote:
So what would you do about wight? Straight up remove it or change it to a more counterjungleable position?

You don't necessarily even have to do something that drastic. Honestly shifting the balance of resource investment or reward of the camp to be less decisively favorable to those single target junglers would probably help.

All of the traditional "farming" junglers are AoE junglers. There's an inherent balance here because fundamentally, single target damage is more appropriate for ganking scenarios while AoE is better for farming (based on the assumption that for similarly ranked skills, the AoE skill is only equivalently powerful against multiple targets). Putting resources in the jungle that can be exploited more effectively by single-target junglers disrupts this balance, because you give farming power to a class of junglers that were already inherently better gankers.

The alternative is to shift some of the camps in the rest of the jungle back toward favoring AoE modes of farming (since they were changed a while back to be more centered on the big creep in terms of HP). With the Wight camp in the game, there's no longer a need for the other jungle camps to be more centered on the big creep, and that change can be reverted.

Ketara

United States15065 Posts

March 08 2014 19:57 GMT

#1563

Changing the other camps to favor AoE damage helps most mid laners take Wraiths though, which is like Riots public enemy #1.

mr_tolkien

France8631 Posts

March 08 2014 19:58 GMT

#1564

On March 09 2014 04:57 Ketara wrote:
Changing the other camps to favor AoE damage helps most mid laners take Wraiths though, which is like Riots public enemy #1.

Then put fucking golems instead of wraiths. Why are they so scared of REALLY changing the jungle layout. They just don't understand their own game

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

March 08 2014 19:59 GMT

#1565

Incidentally, the "bonus XP from jungle camps while behind" change in 3.14 further helps the situation for Lee/Elise, because not only do they have a leg up on farming junglers from having an extra camp they farm more efficiently--if they get behind a farming jungler from pressuring lanes, the game actively gives them help in keeping up with you.

nafta

Bulgaria18893 Posts

March 08 2014 19:59 GMT

#1566

Would be great if they put golems instead of wight and pushed them a bit closer to tower so it is even for red side in the 2v2.

Gahlo

United States35174 Posts

March 08 2014 20:00 GMT

#1567

On March 09 2014 04:53 sylverfyre wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's gonna take nearly a full energy bar though. 180? energy.

Don't care until the #s go live, or at the very least, actually hit the PBE.

Alaric

France45622 Posts

March 08 2014 20:01 GMT

#1568

On March 09 2014 04:54 TheYango wrote:
All of the traditional "farming" junglers are AoE junglers.

Couldn't it be reversed, though? AoE junglers farmed faster because the jungle was designed like that (especially in s2 for Udyr and Shyvana), hence AoE junglers had more gold. AoE meaning faster clears meant that farming junglers needed to AoE.

When the Wight is more easily farmed by single-target junglers it balances the ability to farm up a bit more between AoE and single-target. Your wording seems to indicate that you consider things in a package, although Lee and Elise are more combinations of good-single target clears and good ganking kits, since the two can be untied (see Yi, pre-6 Warwick, for example, or Pantheon—he's both, but his ganking ability relies mostly on his ult, which isn't used to farm, rather than his Q).

I guess it comes back to the fact that Riot would like junglers to be able to just farm while not ganking much, treating the jungle as a 4th source of income, an endeavour that doesn't make Yi or Tryndamere any more viable because they don't apply pressure, while other champions combine good damage (be it AoE or single-target) and good ganking kits.
Kinda how Maokai or Amumu were popular in s2 (until Shyvana was used to counterjungle/invade instead of simply passively farm), and now it's Lee and Elise (over stuff like Mundo or Jax).

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

March 08 2014 20:04 GMT

#1569

For AoE damage to be "balanced" against single-target damage, it has to be hitting multiple targets to be of equivalent usefulness to a similarly ranked single-target skill. Single-target damage is by nature stronger for ganking because that's a mode of combat that's specifically centered around hitting one person.

On March 09 2014 05:01 Alaric wrote:
Your wording seems to indicate that you consider things in a package, although Lee and Elise are more combinations of good-single target clears and good ganking kits, since the two can be untied (see Yi, pre-6 Warwick, for example, or Pantheon—he's both, but his ganking ability relies mostly on his ult, which isn't used to farm, rather than his Q).

I'm not sure what your Yi and Warwick examples are. Yi farms as an AoE jungler and is exceptional because he has a 0-CC kit, which is not something that Riot can reproduce en masse and have those champs be practical. Warwick is not a fast farmer, even if everything was single-target. He just got away with it in the S1 jungle because there was simply less TO farm, so it was less punishing to be a slow farmer.

Yezzus

United States2318 Posts

March 08 2014 20:10 GMT

#1570

On March 09 2014 04:37 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
These Lee changes are dangerously close to making me quit this game completely.

See you in a week

Alaric

France45622 Posts

March 08 2014 20:13 GMT

#1571

Yeah I'm tired so I had trouble finding examples of "good" single-target junglers (in terms of farming speed). I've been a bit disconnected with the jungle, only played Vi and Nautilus (sometimes Mundo) a while ago, the latter two are rather weak/middle of the barrel and Vi's permabanned so I haven't jungled nearly as much as I used to and I'm not really up to date with the situational junglers you can see in soloQ recently.

My point was that even if super fast clearing single-target junglers existed (like there are super fast AoE junglers when the camps accomodate it), the more important fact is that Elise and Lee combine good single-target+good ganking kit, so it doesn't matter if the jungle is more single-target or AoE-oriented for junglers with lesser ganking kits than these.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

March 08 2014 20:17 GMT

#1572

You can't decouple single-target farming power from good ganking power without making a champ that's just bad though, because single-target damage is fundamentally geared toward ganking. You'd need an anomalous case like a 0 CC champ to make that possible, and that's not a design you can mass produce.

A melee hero with CC and engagement skills, and a high single-target damage without AoE is going to be a strong ganker. A melee hero without the first 2 but having the 3rd is just going to be a bad hero regardless for reasons unrelated to jungling.

Carnivorous Sheep

Baa?21247 Posts

March 08 2014 20:20 GMT

#1573

Riot like band-aid changes so it's going to be "Does 100 damage (250 to minions and monsters)" on everyone this time next year.

Ketara

United States15065 Posts

March 08 2014 20:20 GMT

#1574

On March 09 2014 05:17 TheYango wrote:
You can't decouple single-target farming power from good ganking power without making a champ that's just bad though, because single-target damage is fundamentally geared toward ganking. You'd need an anomalous case like a 0 CC champ to make that possible, and that's not a design you can mass produce.

A melee hero with CC and engagement skills, and a high single-target damage without AoE is going to be a strong ganker. A melee hero without the first 2 but having the 3rd is just going to be a bad hero regardless for reasons unrelated to jungling.

You're basically describing Fiora. Who is... Yeah.

Ketara

United States15065 Posts

March 08 2014 20:23 GMT

#1575

Here's an unrelated topic.

I only have 6 champs left to get: Ahri, Draven, Jinx, Yasuo, Volibear and Velkoz.

I don't really want to play any of them and I am wondering what order to get them in.

I'm thinking Jinx first?

Yezzus

United States2318 Posts

March 08 2014 20:24 GMT

#1576

On March 09 2014 05:23 Ketara wrote:
Here's an unrelated topic.

I only have 6 champs left to get: Ahri, Draven, Jinx, Yasuo, Volibear and Velkoz.

I don't really want to play any of them and I am wondering what order to get them in.

I'm thinking Jinx first?

You're a big boy you dont need us to decide for you

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

March 08 2014 20:24 GMT

#1577

All other factors equal, pick the champ that you would be most OK with rolling in ARAM.

Sufficiency

Canada23833 Posts

March 08 2014 20:25 GMT

#1578

How to get your RP to 0: the web version.

http://sufficientblogging.blogspot.ca/2014/03/rp-calculator.html

Please tell me if there are bugs

Gahlo

United States35174 Posts

March 08 2014 20:28 GMT

#1579

Tak a d6, assign them all a number, and roll it.

+ Show Spoiler [Bonus Psychology lulz] +

1. Realize that the order you put them in might be the order that you want them in anyway.
2. Possibly run into the situation where you get a sudden feeling for one over whatever your roll provided.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

March 08 2014 20:30 GMT

#1580

Sometimes I wonder where Lee Sin would be if Riot, rather than removing the double-E bug and buffing the shit out of everything else, just left the double E bug in the game and balanced around it.