EPTWhere does the extra attack speed even factor in? Is it -really- more damage when you'd use all the charges anyway?
[Patch 4.3] Vel'Koz General Discussion - Page 75
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Where does the extra attack speed even factor in? Is it -really- more damage when you'd use all the charges anyway? | ||
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
Where the fuck did Riot get the idea that Lee falls off late game? Do they even watch OGN or LCS? I can sort of understand the bonus to total AD changes (and the E magical to phys damage), making him a bit weaker early game. But the passive change and the W changes are so horrendously stupid. Why fuck up one of the only champions that you actually designed well in nearly every single way? Why don't you go make sure other champions are up to his level in terms of fun playstyle and versatility. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Wukong can't harass because his E pushes (and his weak by itself) and his Q draws minion aggro, he has to trade everytime. Yeah, his auto-Q-E-auto combo, or even his E-auto-Q combo hurt. Obviously if he's jungling and doing a drive-by burst combo on you then going back to the jungle you'll feel like he's super powerful, because you hurt, 'cept now all his shit is on cooldown and he expended a bunch of mana, if it wasn't a 2v1 with his laner close by you wouldn't just sit here and whine about how he hurts. The problem isn't "Wukong is broken omgwtfbbqritoplzkappa", the problem is that Wukong was designed as a laner but was situational/heavily reliant on outplaying ever since the laning wriggle's nerfs more than two years ago, is pretty much excluded from top lanes because of his lack of sustain, mana costs and a flurry of hard match-ups (and from midlane too competitively because with close to no magic damage champions viable in the offlane it'd force you to an all-physical comp), but that he can go around his weaknesses by jungling, like Pantheon does. TL;DR: his laning is too weak, but these weaknesses don't apply enough anymore in the jungle to offset his strengths, so you've a dichotomy between laning where he's miserable and weaknesses > strengths, and the jungle where the lack of weaknesses mostly leaves the strengths. On March 08 2014 14:52 onlywonderboy wrote: There's been a lot of backlash over the proposed changes on Twitter, maybe this will be one of the times where Riot responds to the criticism and doesn't go through with the changes. Such naivete. <3 This change just makes it clear that you should use Sonic Wave / Resonating Strike when you want more damage and makes its use less confusing. So that's what it feels like to be called a retard by something sporting a huge shit-eating grin... because you never thought of a spell with a %missing health damage component as a "more damage/execute" move. | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On March 08 2014 17:03 yamato77 wrote: Nerfing Lee does make zero sense. Yeah. They should delete him. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
IDK, I know I was defending Riot during the skarner rework but since then I've seen some great suggestions from players that would work great flavorwise and also prevent inescapable perma-slow (what Riot hated), and all Riot did was say "hey we'll buff the slow's intensity instead and hope that works". So I don't have much hope for Lee Sin at this point. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On March 08 2014 23:07 phyvo wrote: On the thread that listed the changes even most of official GD hated the changes. They were also pessimistic that Riot would change anything. IDK, I know I was defending Riot during the skarner rework but since then I've seen some great suggestions from players that would work great flavorwise and also prevent inescapable perma-slow (what Riot hated), and all Riot did was say "hey we'll buff the slow's intensity instead and hope that works". So I don't have much hope for Lee Sin at this point. The other day I told Yango I thought Riot balancing is moving in the right direction. Way to make me look like a retard Riot. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
It's an early game nerf sure, but from level 9 on his Q and E are both doing more damage, not less. His R is doing more damage if the target is knocked into at least 2 people. His W is nerfed, obviously. I mean, I can understand all of the power curve complaints. But this is realistically what we're looking at: Your first clear your Q and E will do about 10 less damage. From level 9 your damage will be the same as it was before. At 18 your Q and E will both do more damage, you'll have 60% more attackspeed, and your R will do more damage if used well. I also think that if you number crunched it, changing from AD runes to Arpen runes would reduce the difference in early game damage, especially since Tempest is changed from magic to phys. All in all that looks like a buff to me, depending on how big his energy problems will be with the Safeguard change. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 09 2014 00:13 Ketara wrote: I feel like some people have a misperception that these Lee changes are a nerf. This is something that happens fairly frequently when they change champs from bonus AD ratios to total AD ratios. It's an early game nerf sure, but from level 9 on his Q and E are both doing more damage, not less. His R is doing more damage if the target is knocked into at least 2 people. His W is nerfed, obviously. I mean, I can understand all of the power curve complaints. But this is realistically what we're looking at: Your first clear your Q and E will do about 10 less damage. From level 9 your damage will be the same as it was before. At 18 your Q and E will both do more damage, you'll have 60% more attackspeed, and your R will do more damage if used well. I also think that if you number crunched it, changing from AD runes to Arpen runes would reduce the difference in early game damage, especially since Tempest is changed from magic to phys. All in all that looks like a buff to me, depending on how big his energy problems will be with the Safeguard change. I don't think anyone here has this misconception. It's Riot's way of homogenizing Lee Sin's power curve (so less damage early, and more damage later), however that in itself is a nerf. When you start homogenizing powercurves, you end up with grouping tons of people in the same niche, and when that happens only the best of that niche is played (unless otherwised banned out). | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
If you're ahead and trying to kick someone into your team it's a nerf. Not that I mind, his ult's damage is bonkers currently and part of why his 1v1 is so absurdly strong when he gets some kind of early advantage (eg. a kill on another lane or something), but your evaluation of his ult is flat out wrong. His E changing from magic to physical nerfs his top lane because it provided him mixed damage to fuck up anyone trying to build armour against him (see what Darius and Jayce do to people early on, Lee maxing E top or mid does the same). Not that I mind either, he's obnoxious and that + his ult makes him snowballs stupidly hard while his kit gives him all the tools to avoid ganks while pushing and denying you farm (also ability to dive). He snowballed harder than Riven, reason why she was still worse was because she won't fall off as hard as him lategame and her shit is AoE so she wrecks all your team at once when ahead. His passive doesn't mean much because it's limited to 2 autos and you still need energy/cooldowns to trigger it, both of which will have lower uptime compared to his passive since you use its charges faster. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
If you're kicking somebody into their own team, presumably it's going to do more damage than it did before. It'll be the biggest issue in a 1v1 and that's also where the bonus attackspeed will be the biggest issue. I just did a quick pass at the math and if you change from AD runes to Arpen runes it changes the early game damage nerf from about 10 to about 5-7, target armor depending. | ||
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Yezzus
United States2318 Posts
On March 08 2014 23:10 PrinceXizor wrote: I can't tell if this is the most brilliant marketing move ever or the dumbest. will all the lee sin mains jump ship to other junglers and buy rp to get skins and stuff with them? or will they just get mad at riot and leave. No1 leaves | ||
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Yezzus
United States2318 Posts
But I do agree that these changes suck and I do think he is perfectly fine atm. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On March 09 2014 00:38 Yezzus wrote: Lee seems in a good place but every time I watch a high elo player streamed in d1/ Challenger I see alot of Lee bans. He might be a bit too strong in the highest levels which is what Riot balances for anyway. Just because he seems fine in your silver/gold games doesn't mean he isnt a problem overall. But I do agree that these changes suck and I do think he is perfectly fine atm. hmm. Ketara do me a favor and say something anti riot. its been a year and i haven't seen one post from you that hasn't fully agreed with riot on everything. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 09 2014 00:38 Yezzus wrote: Lee seems in a good place but every time I watch a high elo player streamed in d1/ Challenger I see alot of Lee bans. He might be a bit too strong in the highest levels which is what Riot balances for anyway. Just because he seems fine in your silver/gold games doesn't mean he isnt a problem overall. But I do agree that these changes suck and I do think he is perfectly fine atm. Did you just call d1 solo queue highest level of play? | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Yezzus
United States2318 Posts
On March 09 2014 00:40 wei2coolman wrote: Did you just call d1 solo queue highest level of play? Yup compared to the rest of the 99% of playerbase if you look at it it is | ||
AsmodeusXI
United States15536 Posts
On March 09 2014 00:48 Yezzus wrote: Yup compared to the rest of the 99% of playerbase if you look at it it is Even if you count D1 solo queue as highest level of play (which it's not), saying Riot balances at the highest levels of play (which is professional at the VERY least) is wrong. See every Shaco and/or Yi nerf in the past two seasons for evidence. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
And yes, with stuff like Lulu, Thresh and Kayle being somewhat popular, bursting your kicked target before it can be protected/flash away/your team gets counter-initiated upon is important. | ||
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