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[Patch 4.3] Vel'Koz General Discussion - Page 76

Forum Index > LoL General
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EU LCS Week 8 Review
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 16:16:07
March 08 2014 16:15 GMT
#1501
I guess in general I think what makes Lee a frequently picked champion is all the versatility, mobility, and ability to outplay people in his kit. I think that's why he's remained strong over the past few years even though he's been nerfed over and over and over again. Every time Lee gets nerfed everybody says he will never be played again and every time he remains just as strong despite the nerfs.

So aside from the Safeguard change (which DOES hit his mobility and might be a big deal) I don't see numbers tweaks as being something that's going to fundamentally alter what Lee does or change his status as a contested pick.

Especially when said numbers tweaks are as small as they appear to be.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Doctorbeat
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands13241 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 16:27:18
March 08 2014 16:21 GMT
#1502
Riot's balancing philosophy just seems to be the exact opposite of the Dota2 one. Where Icefrog&co make weaknesses and strengths bigger, Riot chooses to smoothe everything out into a big plaque of similar and same.

Skarner has too much sticking power? Let's not try to work out a way to make that his strength, just take it away and give him some random ranged slow with high CD. Champion deals too much damage? Nerf the damage and buff their weakness to make up for it. The same happens here. Lee has too big early game power? Nerf his early game damage and engage potential and give him some late game damage to make up for it.

I do think the number tweaks are kinda meh, the W change is what needs to be gone. Zenon explained on /r/lol how Lee in late game devolves into a ult bot, but isn't that the entire point? To pick off someone with an Insec? Because if being an ult bot is wrong (in the way Lee is), what's up with Annie, Leona, Wukong, Warwick, Vi, Syndra, Shyvana, ad infinitum. Plenty of champions revolve around using their ult at the right time on the right people, and there is nothing wrong with that.

You can even counterplay vs the Insec, you need to flash away or get Morg E'd or CC the Lee. There is counterplay, and we've seen that happen. So don't take it away.
- TEAM LIQUID - doctorbeat on LoL
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
March 08 2014 16:31 GMT
#1503
I just think it's a bit dubious to say you are increasing late game power of a melee by increasing attack speed in turn for nerfing the damage on up to 3 of his abilities.
Carrilord has arrived.
SagaZ
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
France3460 Posts
March 08 2014 16:32 GMT
#1504
If nerfing him makes it so I don't have to see one in half of my games, I'm okay with it
Be nice, buy wards and don't feed double buff.
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
March 08 2014 16:37 GMT
#1505
On March 09 2014 01:31 Slusher wrote:
I just think it's a bit dubious to say you are increasing late game power of a melee by increasing attack speed in turn for nerfing the damage on up to 3 of his abilities.


Yeah, except at level 18 the only ability that's doing less damage is his R and that's only some of the time.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
March 08 2014 16:39 GMT
#1506
Man Urgot would be so buffed if his Q did 10 more damage at level 18.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 16:40:23
March 08 2014 16:39 GMT
#1507
On March 09 2014 01:15 Ketara wrote:
I guess in general I think what makes Lee a frequently picked champion is all the versatility, mobility, and ability to outplay people in his kit. I think that's why he's remained strong over the past few years even though he's been nerfed over and over and over again. Every time Lee gets nerfed everybody says he will never be played again and every time he remains just as strong despite the nerfs.

So aside from the Safeguard change (which DOES hit his mobility and might be a big deal) I don't see numbers tweaks as being something that's going to fundamentally alter what Lee does or change his status as a contested pick.

Especially when said numbers tweaks are as small as they appear to be.

Safeguard change is a huge Nerf to his niche, which is mobility.

And like slusher said, an AS buff lategame for a melee is fairly worthless. Id like anyone touting it to examine the number of AAs a Renekton does during teamfights in this weeks lcs.
Freeeeeeedom
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 16:43:07
March 08 2014 16:42 GMT
#1508
With the late game power buff on Flurry, we needed to reduce some damage somewhere, and Tempest’s high utility was where we looked. These numbers might still be too high, but the general idea is that if you level up Tempest while building tanky on Lee Sin, the damage difference won’t be really big. If you build lots of AD on Lee Sin, you’ll definitely see less damage on Tempest (which we made up for in Flurry).
• Damage changed to 25/50/75/10/125 (+0.6 total AD) from 60/95/130/165/200 (+1.0 Bonus AD)
• Now deals physical damage instead of magic


am I confused? this looks like a nerf at all ranks to both ration and base?

and I said up to to cover for Q since it is reliant on the targets health

like to even use attack speed on Lee you need to Q in and double E just to not be kited, so thats most of your passive down the drain anyway
Carrilord has arrived.
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 16:49:45
March 08 2014 16:49 GMT
#1509
On March 09 2014 01:39 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2014 01:15 Ketara wrote:
I guess in general I think what makes Lee a frequently picked champion is all the versatility, mobility, and ability to outplay people in his kit. I think that's why he's remained strong over the past few years even though he's been nerfed over and over and over again. Every time Lee gets nerfed everybody says he will never be played again and every time he remains just as strong despite the nerfs.

So aside from the Safeguard change (which DOES hit his mobility and might be a big deal) I don't see numbers tweaks as being something that's going to fundamentally alter what Lee does or change his status as a contested pick.

Especially when said numbers tweaks are as small as they appear to be.

Safeguard change is a huge Nerf to his niche, which is mobility.

And like slusher said, an AS buff lategame for a melee is fairly worthless. Id like anyone touting it to examine the number of AAs a Renekton does during teamfights in this weeks lcs.

The way lee sin autos its not EXACTLY worthless. what it translates into is more energy rather than more damage. but its still bad. it maybe makes up for the 100 energy cost on his W on average, but of course never in situations you'd want it to.
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
March 08 2014 16:49 GMT
#1510
the thing about the nerf to 8% missing health is that they go "lol it didn't work on tanks anyway so we changed it to make it more clear"

taking into accout that the base damage(on Q+Q) was reduced by ~170, the MAX bonus base damage you can get from low health now is 141 any Q execute that would kill a squish target would have killed it with the old Q, despite doing less theoretical damage, whilst it will undoubtedly do less even though not perhaps leathal to a tank.
Carrilord has arrived.
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
March 08 2014 16:50 GMT
#1511
On March 09 2014 01:42 Slusher wrote:
Show nested quote +
With the late game power buff on Flurry, we needed to reduce some damage somewhere, and Tempest’s high utility was where we looked. These numbers might still be too high, but the general idea is that if you level up Tempest while building tanky on Lee Sin, the damage difference won’t be really big. If you build lots of AD on Lee Sin, you’ll definitely see less damage on Tempest (which we made up for in Flurry).
• Damage changed to 25/50/75/10/125 (+0.6 total AD) from 60/95/130/165/200 (+1.0 Bonus AD)
• Now deals physical damage instead of magic


am I confused? this looks like a nerf at all ranks to both ration and base?

and I said up to to cover for Q since it is reliant on the targets health

like to even use attack speed on Lee you need to Q in and double E just to not be kited, so thats most of your passive down the drain anyway


The key thing with the E is changing it from magic to phys is going to affect how good armor pen is quite a bit.

At 18 with zero AD and zero pen it'll do 193 instead of 200.

But that's unrealistic. I imagine people would change to arpen runes with these changes, which would mean building pure tank it'd be a damage buff.

And if you're building damage you're likely to get a LW and/or a BC, and it will still turn out to be similar damage vs. squishies and probably a buff vs. tanks.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
dae
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada1600 Posts
March 08 2014 16:50 GMT
#1512
Personally, I like the Lee changes.

When your playing vs a lee sin, and your playing a squishy mid without and escape, and lee gets 1 or 2 kills from other lanes, if he decides to gank you mid, and plays it well, you are dead. There is literally nothing you can really do to prevent him from ward jumping, flashing behind you, and kicking you to your death.

wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
March 08 2014 16:55 GMT
#1513
On March 09 2014 01:50 Ketara wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2014 01:42 Slusher wrote:
With the late game power buff on Flurry, we needed to reduce some damage somewhere, and Tempest’s high utility was where we looked. These numbers might still be too high, but the general idea is that if you level up Tempest while building tanky on Lee Sin, the damage difference won’t be really big. If you build lots of AD on Lee Sin, you’ll definitely see less damage on Tempest (which we made up for in Flurry).
• Damage changed to 25/50/75/10/125 (+0.6 total AD) from 60/95/130/165/200 (+1.0 Bonus AD)
• Now deals physical damage instead of magic


am I confused? this looks like a nerf at all ranks to both ration and base?

and I said up to to cover for Q since it is reliant on the targets health

like to even use attack speed on Lee you need to Q in and double E just to not be kited, so thats most of your passive down the drain anyway


The key thing with the E is changing it from magic to phys is going to affect how good armor pen is quite a bit.

At 18 with zero AD and zero pen it'll do 193 instead of 200.

But that's unrealistic. I imagine people would change to arpen runes with these changes, which would mean building pure tank it'd be a damage buff.

And if you're building damage you're likely to get a LW and/or a BC, and it will still turn out to be similar damage vs. squishies and probably a buff vs. tanks.

It's a nerf in laning phase in toplane. Guess what? all current fotm just builds sunfire still, and instead of doing magic damage to negate what they're building, you're building right into a fucking wall.
liftlift > tsm
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
March 08 2014 16:57 GMT
#1514
Yeah I do think these changes are a bigger hit to lane Lee than jungle Lee.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 16:59:28
March 08 2014 16:58 GMT
#1515
a typical damage building Lee Sin (BC/HY/LW) will lose about ~140) damage on E before mr.

not really a counter argument just putting that out there if anyone wants to do the mr math (because I don't lel)
Carrilord has arrived.
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
March 08 2014 17:00 GMT
#1516
On March 09 2014 01:50 dae wrote:
Personally, I like the Lee changes.

When your playing vs a lee sin, and your playing a squishy mid without and escape, and lee gets 1 or 2 kills from other lanes, if he decides to gank you mid, and plays it well, you are dead. There is literally nothing you can really do to prevent him from ward jumping, flashing behind you, and kicking you to your death.



You could just you know ward and position better? Most junglers that people play now if they get fed kill or 2 can do that early on.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 17:09:36
March 08 2014 17:08 GMT
#1517
Does all this extra AS excuse me to build IE+atmogs now?
On March 09 2014 02:00 Numy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2014 01:50 dae wrote:
Personally, I like the Lee changes.

When your playing vs a lee sin, and your playing a squishy mid without and escape, and lee gets 1 or 2 kills from other lanes, if he decides to gank you mid, and plays it well, you are dead. There is literally nothing you can really do to prevent him from ward jumping, flashing behind you, and kicking you to your death.



You could just you know ward and position better? Most junglers that people play now if they get fed kill or 2 can do that early on.

Also this, a trillion times.
wukong has invis approach, eve has similar.
Vi has strong knockback gap closer, pantheon has point and click stun, etc etc. Lee Sin isn't the only one with gap close
liftlift > tsm
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 17:29:07
March 08 2014 17:13 GMT
#1518
On March 09 2014 01:58 Slusher wrote:
a typical damage building Lee Sin (BC/HY/LW) will lose about ~140) damage on E before mr.

not really a counter argument just putting that out there if anyone wants to do the mr math (because I don't lel)


First of all, it's not a loss of 140.

Lets say we're going BC, Hydra, LW and a Lizard stone on a jungle Lee. 224.26 bonus AD after runes and masteries.

So our old Lee with AD runes and our new Lee with Arpen runes are going to do this damage with E:
Old Lee: 424.26 magic
New Lee: 324.71 phys

So a loss of 100. Lets assume our target is an ADC with a GA. I'll use a level 18 Jinx as an example. After counting pen, the actual damage will be:

Old Lee: 236.31 magic
New Lee: 205.54 phys with zero BC stacks, 246.77 phys with 5 BC stacks.

So, roughly equivalent damage on a low resistances target, perhaps a small nerf. Against anybody building tanky it'll end up doing more damage than it would before.


I don't know what a typical end game Lee build is (they vary), but I imagine if you were looking at tanky with a LW as a single damage item, you're gonna like this change.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
March 08 2014 17:16 GMT
#1519
On March 09 2014 01:49 PrinceXizor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2014 01:39 cLutZ wrote:
On March 09 2014 01:15 Ketara wrote:
I guess in general I think what makes Lee a frequently picked champion is all the versatility, mobility, and ability to outplay people in his kit. I think that's why he's remained strong over the past few years even though he's been nerfed over and over and over again. Every time Lee gets nerfed everybody says he will never be played again and every time he remains just as strong despite the nerfs.

So aside from the Safeguard change (which DOES hit his mobility and might be a big deal) I don't see numbers tweaks as being something that's going to fundamentally alter what Lee does or change his status as a contested pick.

Especially when said numbers tweaks are as small as they appear to be.

Safeguard change is a huge Nerf to his niche, which is mobility.

And like slusher said, an AS buff lategame for a melee is fairly worthless. Id like anyone touting it to examine the number of AAs a Renekton does during teamfights in this weeks lcs.

The way lee sin autos its not EXACTLY worthless. what it translates into is more energy rather than more damage. but its still bad. it maybe makes up for the 100 energy cost on his W on average, but of course never in situations you'd want it to.

Jack shit. Still 30 energy top for every cast, since his cooldowns and cost aren't affected it does nothing for his energy, save for the edge case where he wouldn't get 2 autos after a skill but does because he aa faster, that's chasing someone without having tagged them with E.

Doesn't mean anything.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Aando
Profile Joined August 2011
1304 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 17:19:12
March 08 2014 17:17 GMT
#1520
It's during times like this I'm happy I don't play League anymore. Now I can just laugh at it instead of getting severe butthurt for this is some retarded shit.

I don't even understand why they'd spend time on Lee Sin. There is so many champs that need attention while Lee Sin is pretty much in a perfect place atm.
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