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On March 07 2014 03:43 YouGotNothin wrote:
I agree that revolver isn't necessary, Q provides decent sustain on its own. However against some high-sustain opponents it may help especially if you get behind.
Edit: Also can someone explain why Vlad is considered bad mid? Voyboy ran him mid in the LCS and did fine with it.
vlad has more in common with top laners and needs to be considered as a unique pick in comp strategy. as with some other offmeta picks, it's not necessarily an issue with vlad himself mid; he just demands special treatment that most teams view as not worth the headache
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"unique pick in comp strategy"
when vlad is played a lot
-->standard top laner
when vlad is never played
"oh he is just situational"
what sort of teamcomp do you expect vlad to be picked in? He's generic AoE damage
people starting just running vlad+kennen comps like a year ago because you need someone who can use vlad's R bonus damage
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I feel Vladimir's lane presence is kind of low and he doesn't roam too well. He lanes OK mid but I think there are better options out there.
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On March 07 2014 03:57 Slayer91 wrote:
"unique pick in comp strategy"
when vlad is played a lot
-->standard top laner
when vlad is never played
"oh he is just situational"
what sort of teamcomp do you expect vlad to be picked in? He's generic AoE damage
people starting just running vlad+kennen comps like a year ago because you need someone who can use vlad's R bonus damage
generic mid? i agree swapping him in top is straightforward, but the question was about mid vlad in particular, where he's competing for a different niche
honestly though i could just be missing your point because the train of thought in the top bit is hard to follow
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On March 07 2014 03:57 Slayer91 wrote:
"unique pick in comp strategy"
when vlad is played a lot
-->standard top laner
when vlad is never played
"oh he is just situational"
what sort of teamcomp do you expect vlad to be picked in? He's generic AoE damage
people starting just running vlad+kennen comps like a year ago because you need someone who can use vlad's R bonus damage
I feel like being Hemo'd on puddle while getting Vel'Koz ulted would make me want to throw myself infront of a moving train.
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On March 07 2014 03:40 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
To be honest I'm not 100% sure revolver is core on Vlad anymore
I haven't played him in a while but with Cowl out now you kinda need Haunting Guise asap and a revolver is a huge waste of gold for sustain when you could be building penetration. Thoughts?
Haunting guise is not a bad buy on vlad, but definitly not to counter cowl. Buying resists is the best answer to flat penetration, so buying guise to fight several cowls/cowl upgrades is the least efficient way to adress it. Buying CDR/AP/voidstaff is more effective.
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the reason not to pick him mid is because of how insanely powerful mid champions are
they are the most powerful teamfighters inthe game probably
you just dont run 2 because then its too easy to dive
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On March 07 2014 04:01 NpG)Explosive wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 03:40 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
To be honest I'm not 100% sure revolver is core on Vlad anymore
I haven't played him in a while but with Cowl out now you kinda need Haunting Guise asap and a revolver is a huge waste of gold for sustain when you could be building penetration. Thoughts? Haunting guise is not a bad buy on vlad, but definitly not to counter cowl. Buying resists is the best answer to flat penetration, so buying guise to fight several cowls/cowl upgrades is the least efficient way to adress it. Buying CDR/AP/voidstaff is more effective.
Mmmmm... I see your point but I'm trying to brainstorm alternatives to revolver because it just seems like it's a waste of potential because right now cowl + hex just straight up counters vlad in lane for most matchups
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United States907 Posts
I still haven't seen a great argument for why he isn't an acceptable mid. In lane he can be abusive if he gets ahead because he has sustain, a rare quality for mid champs. He also has decent wave clear with E. Post-laning he provides huge AOE damage, tankiness, and distraction, (and slow if you get Rylais). He doesn't have huge burst or utility, but these can be filled by other roles, especially with all the bursty assassin junglers we are seeing now.
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On March 07 2014 04:38 YouGotNothin wrote:
I still haven't seen a great argument for why he isn't an acceptable mid. In lane he can be abusive if he gets ahead because he has sustain, a rare quality for mid champs. He also has decent wave clear with E. Post-laning he provides huge AOE damage, tankiness, and distraction, (and slow if you get Rylais). He doesn't have huge burst or utility, but these can be filled by other roles, especially with all the bursty assassin junglers we are seeing now.
who can you name that can replace lulu, orianna, gragas, or leblanc? keep in mind the magic/physical damage distinction. i also think you are overrating how important sustain is to mid lane bullying; it may be crucial to how vlad functions, but a lack of sustain in other mages doesn't mean that they somehow aren't able to win lane as hard with a lead
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On March 07 2014 04:38 YouGotNothin wrote:
I still haven't seen a great argument for why he isn't an acceptable mid. In lane he can be abusive if he gets ahead because he has sustain, a rare quality for mid champs. He also has decent wave clear with E. Post-laning he provides huge AOE damage, tankiness, and distraction, (and slow if you get Rylais). He doesn't have huge burst or utility, but these can be filled by other roles, especially with all the bursty assassin junglers we are seeing now.
Vlad doesn't do well in lane against ranged champions who bully better than he bullies.
Champions who fit this category include, but are not limited to: All popular mid lane champions.
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Revolver is pretty much only core on Vlad if you can buy it first base, weather intentional or unintentional base.
The reason people prefer Vlad top is his strongest trait is his "shove top all day force someone to come deal with me" which is a lot better in top, his teamfight is ok but it does not compare to the insane sidelane pressure he can put out. similar to singed, except unlike singed if he gets a big enough lead and you try to gank him, he'll just fucking double kill you instead of running.
He is weak early which is a problem vs. a lot of mid laners, pretty much Zed and Nidalee are the only common mids who can't dunk him at early levels which also does not take into account that Nidalee during the grouping phase is very strong vs. Vlad (Vlad has poor range, poor initation, unsafe waveclear)
also he has terrible ganks, so he can't really do that from mid either.
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I'll expand on Revolver a little but, the item is actually pretty good for how much you pay for it on a champion with a single target nuke (like vlad) the problem is because s3 Wraith was removed from the game you are sorta committing an item slot to a 1200g efficency. if you get it early like around ~lvl6 you can use it to begin to bully lane by forcing trades early and often, but the closer you get to 9 the less you need the revolver to do so, it helps, but the slot efficiency starts to become questionable.
Revolver is also basically useless in 5v5 encounters. so resistances like Abyssal/Hourglass (or even SV) can provide a lot more.
pretty much the only time I'd reccomend revolver at a late timing is if you are going to go full on ignore teammates and never leave your lane all game, which Vlad is extremely good at but can be dicy in solo.
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I keep hearing oh wraith was removed. Wota is nearly identical to it.
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On March 07 2014 05:30 JazzVortical wrote:
I keep hearing oh wraith was removed. Wota is nearly identical to it.
Not just identical. Better.
50 AP 10% CDR 20% vamp for 2000g
Instead of 40 AP 10% CDR 20% vamp for 2000g
I do miss the old aura WotA though. It would have been neat in some of these crazy AP spellthief support builds.
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I'm confused I could have sworn that wraith had 20% cdr but the wiki patch history says no...
I mean at a minimum it was 50ap when it was being bought on laners so vlad lost health regen for more mana regen, but yea you are right that isn't substantial, I still don't disagree with what I said about efficiency all things considered.
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Vlad is unconventional and a bit bad mid because:
He gets outranged by conventional mids.
He has weak burst and basically no cc, so he roams poorly and supports ganks poorly.
He has poor mobility, further weakening his roam.
Strong mids typically have:
1. Good waveclear (he has)
2. Long range (no)
3. Good mobility (no)
4. cc (no)
5. High burst (no)
Not a recipe for success in a conventional comp.
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^
I'd agree with all the above except for high burst. Vlad's burst is ridiculously deceptive. I was gonna get back and talk about why he's not conventional, but those basically summed up my points.
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I think it's more that because of his poor range and initiation his high burst requires someone to commit to fighting you when you have 4 stacks of Tides already up, hence why he is so good at counter ganks.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 07 2014 05:33 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 05:30 JazzVortical wrote:
I keep hearing oh wraith was removed. Wota is nearly identical to it. Not just identical. Better. 50 AP 10% CDR 20% vamp for 2000g Instead of 40 AP 10% CDR 20% vamp for 2000g I do miss the old aura WotA though. It would have been neat in some of these crazy AP spellthief support builds.
I understand removing the Vamp aura, but I wish they'd at least kept the AP aura.
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EPT
