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On January 15 2014 14:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 14:12 wei2coolman wrote:On January 15 2014 13:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On January 15 2014 12:06 GolemMadness wrote:On January 15 2014 11:46 IamPryda wrote:
no nid or ziggs nerfs lol gtfo Why would Nidalee be nerfed again? nidalee is like the overpowered hero in league right now among competent players, she ws 100% pick/ban for the longest time in group stage ogn and im not 100% sure on the numbers but i believe she is still the highest pick/ban rate in ogn after semifinals. edit: 18 out of 21 in bracket stages; main outlier is skt vs kt where 2 out of 3 games did not feature a nidalee, primarily due to ryu/kt not particularly favoring nidalee picks and skt choosing not to ban as a response nidalee has 35 appearances in group stages compare with: 11 for Mundo (12 in group stages) 19 for shyvana (25 in group stages) 18 for gragas (23 in group stages) 3 for ziggs (all in ozone/shield series, 0 in group stage) lol yea lets nerf ziggs he's so overpowered fucking idiots 21 for kassadin (19 in group stages) what are the numbers for post 3.14? no idea idr when they switched and im too lazy to figur eit out i got those numbers by ctrl + fing leagupedia the point is nidalee is a fucking stupid hero and is bullshit and is waaaay more of a "problem" than mundo or ziggs (rofl) or nasus or whoever else it is people like to cry about maybe about par with kass and shyvana
Sounds like time to de-fog her and other transformation champions
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Baa?21244 Posts
On January 15 2014 14:17 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 14:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On January 15 2014 14:12 wei2coolman wrote:On January 15 2014 13:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On January 15 2014 12:06 GolemMadness wrote:On January 15 2014 11:46 IamPryda wrote:
no nid or ziggs nerfs lol gtfo Why would Nidalee be nerfed again? nidalee is like the overpowered hero in league right now among competent players, she ws 100% pick/ban for the longest time in group stage ogn and im not 100% sure on the numbers but i believe she is still the highest pick/ban rate in ogn after semifinals. edit: 18 out of 21 in bracket stages; main outlier is skt vs kt where 2 out of 3 games did not feature a nidalee, primarily due to ryu/kt not particularly favoring nidalee picks and skt choosing not to ban as a response nidalee has 35 appearances in group stages compare with: 11 for Mundo (12 in group stages) 19 for shyvana (25 in group stages) 18 for gragas (23 in group stages) 3 for ziggs (all in ozone/shield series, 0 in group stage) lol yea lets nerf ziggs he's so overpowered fucking idiots 21 for kassadin (19 in group stages) what are the numbers for post 3.14? no idea idr when they switched and im too lazy to figur eit out i got those numbers by ctrl + fing leagupedia the point is nidalee is a fucking stupid hero and is bullshit and is waaaay more of a "problem" than mundo or ziggs (rofl) or nasus or whoever else it is people like to cry about maybe about par with kass and shyvana She's strong cuz she's a dedicated niche, the ultimate poke champ. Don't think much will change unless they completely gimp her main spell (spear throw).
Hardly, nidalee is strong in almost all team comps
people have pigeonholed her into a "poke comp" only role except she is absurdly strong in almost all team comps people are just too dumb to change their predetermined way of thinking
yea shes "good" as a poke comp but people dont realize that nidalee single handedly turns any team into a poke comp so there is absolutely no pressure to draft a comp around nidalee at all
it literally doesnt matter what your other 4 champions are there will come a point where people are grouped in a lane under a tower and nidalee will throw 50 spears, miss 49, and one will one shot your adc/support/mid and you will lose the ensuing teamfight it's a stupid hero and a stupid mechanic and all her other spells are stupidly good in addition to spears
you can counter initiate absurdly well with heal, you can kite cause no one can catch you, you can fight skirmishes both in and out of the jungle and you can split push
the only comp that: "counters" nidalee is 5 man hard engage except that gets countered by nidalee split pushing + the other four can be stuff that totally screws with the plan, nidalee is literally never a bad pick or even close to it - at worst she's a good pick and at best she will win the game 1v5
ziggs is an example of a dedicated niche (and his pick rates in real professional play reflects it); nidalee is an example of blatant op
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I contest the idea that Sunfire Cape ever falls off. It gives (gave) 45 flat magic damage in an AoE for only ~800 gold.
Similar point-blank AoE spells:
Karthus Defile requires 225 AP to match
Mundo Burning Agony requires 225 AP to match
Fiddlesticks Crowstorm requires 100 AP to match
Shyvana Burnout requires 225 bonus AD to match
Basically the cost efficiency of Sunfire damage is through the roof, most of these champs would have to pay 5k-6k gold to match Sunfire's 800g. Obviously they would get other benefits from the stats (except Mundo lol).
So the idea that it falls off just because it doesn't scale with other things you build is silly. It's like if Wit's End gave 150 damage on hit would you really claim it falls off? It still wouldn't scale with lifesteal or crit but it would just be so damn efficient that it would be good all game.
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i understand the urge to kill 1v2 and make a skillbased 1v1 and a skillbased 2v2 lane instead.
But changing the map in this way is just stupid. Thats like 1 step away from ADCs having a debuff on them that kills them after 1 minite without having a champion with support tag near them.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On January 15 2014 14:24 Alzadar wrote:
I contest the idea that Sunfire Cape ever falls off. It gives (gave) 45 flat magic damage in an AoE for only ~800 gold.
Similar point-blank AoE spells:
Karthus Defile requires 225 AP to match
Mundo Burning Agony requires 225 AP to match
Fiddlesticks Crowstorm requires 100 AP to match
Shyvana Burnout requires 225 bonus AD to match
Basically the cost efficiency of Sunfire damage is through the roof, most of these champs would have to pay 5k-6k gold to match Sunfire's 800g. Obviously they would get other benefits from the stats (except Mundo lol).
So the idea that it falls off just because it doesn't scale with other things you build is silly. It's like if Wit's End gave 150 damage on hit would you really claim it falls off? It still wouldn't scale with lifesteal or crit but it would just be so damn efficient that it would be good all game.
Except you don't have mpen on anyone who builds a si fire so it's like 10 to 20 damage per second
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On January 15 2014 14:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 14:24 Alzadar wrote:
I contest the idea that Sunfire Cape ever falls off. It gives (gave) 45 flat magic damage in an AoE for only ~800 gold.
Similar point-blank AoE spells:
Karthus Defile requires 225 AP to match
Mundo Burning Agony requires 225 AP to match
Fiddlesticks Crowstorm requires 100 AP to match
Shyvana Burnout requires 225 bonus AD to match
Basically the cost efficiency of Sunfire damage is through the roof, most of these champs would have to pay 5k-6k gold to match Sunfire's 800g. Obviously they would get other benefits from the stats (except Mundo lol).
So the idea that it falls off just because it doesn't scale with other things you build is silly. It's like if Wit's End gave 150 damage on hit would you really claim it falls off? It still wouldn't scale with lifesteal or crit but it would just be so damn efficient that it would be good all game. Except you don't have mpen on anyone who builds a si fire so it's like 10 to 20 damage per second
In order for it to go down to 10 damage per second the target would have to have 300 MR, fyi.
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On January 15 2014 14:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 14:24 Alzadar wrote:
I contest the idea that Sunfire Cape ever falls off. It gives (gave) 45 flat magic damage in an AoE for only ~800 gold.
Similar point-blank AoE spells:
Karthus Defile requires 225 AP to match
Mundo Burning Agony requires 225 AP to match
Fiddlesticks Crowstorm requires 100 AP to match
Shyvana Burnout requires 225 bonus AD to match
Basically the cost efficiency of Sunfire damage is through the roof, most of these champs would have to pay 5k-6k gold to match Sunfire's 800g. Obviously they would get other benefits from the stats (except Mundo lol).
So the idea that it falls off just because it doesn't scale with other things you build is silly. It's like if Wit's End gave 150 damage on hit would you really claim it falls off? It still wouldn't scale with lifesteal or crit but it would just be so damn efficient that it would be good all game. Except you don't have mpen on anyone who builds a si fire so it's like 10 to 20 damage per second
Reduced to 10 damage LOL I forgot how common it was for squishies to walk around with 340 MR.
Anyways it's a dumb argument to take resists into consideration when comparing flat non-true damage. BF Sword falls off because late game it only really gives 30 AD. Even at 20 damage in a AoE (which is still a pretty high ~120 MR for squishies) it's still the best bang for your buck on any champ without big steroids.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On January 15 2014 14:37 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 14:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On January 15 2014 14:24 Alzadar wrote:
I contest the idea that Sunfire Cape ever falls off. It gives (gave) 45 flat magic damage in an AoE for only ~800 gold.
Similar point-blank AoE spells:
Karthus Defile requires 225 AP to match
Mundo Burning Agony requires 225 AP to match
Fiddlesticks Crowstorm requires 100 AP to match
Shyvana Burnout requires 225 bonus AD to match
Basically the cost efficiency of Sunfire damage is through the roof, most of these champs would have to pay 5k-6k gold to match Sunfire's 800g. Obviously they would get other benefits from the stats (except Mundo lol).
So the idea that it falls off just because it doesn't scale with other things you build is silly. It's like if Wit's End gave 150 damage on hit would you really claim it falls off? It still wouldn't scale with lifesteal or crit but it would just be so damn efficient that it would be good all game. Except you don't have mpen on anyone who builds a si fire so it's like 10 to 20 damage per second Reduced to 10 damage LOL I forgot how common it was for squishies to walk around with 340 MR.
OK 20 then the point stands it's a really stupid comparison to compare an item to a skill on heroes who build AP and mpen for other things too as a cost efficiency comparison
Your theory craft is bad and I'm on my phone so I can't even flame you in depth but multiplicative scaling is a thing
Building AP on Karthus makes ur other skills do more dmg building a Sunfire doesn't make you do more dmg on anything else and there's no where for the dmg to go but down both as an absolute value as well as as a percentage of the enemy's hp
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Sad to see this Shyvana change, mostly because I prefer her as a jungler than topaner, and this makes the former less attractive.
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On January 15 2014 14:24 Alzadar wrote:
I contest the idea that Sunfire Cape ever falls off. It gives (gave) 45 flat magic damage in an AoE for only ~800 gold.
Similar point-blank AoE spells:
Karthus Defile requires 225 AP to match
Mundo Burning Agony requires 225 AP to match
Fiddlesticks Crowstorm requires 100 AP to match
Shyvana Burnout requires 225 bonus AD to match
Basically the cost efficiency of Sunfire damage is through the roof, most of these champs would have to pay 5k-6k gold to match Sunfire's 800g. Obviously they would get other benefits from the stats (except Mundo lol).
So the idea that it falls off just because it doesn't scale with other things you build is silly. It's like if Wit's End gave 150 damage on hit would you really claim it falls off? It still wouldn't scale with lifesteal or crit but it would just be so damn efficient that it would be good all game.
I think you mean 40 magic damage (previously). It's now 25+lvl (or 26-43) dmg now. 40 magic damage almost certainly fell off, because of lack of scaling or penetration on the champions that bought it. By level 18, it deals the same amount of damage and, yes, it's still alot of dmgz for cost efficiency, but compared to the other major damage sources? 3-item ADCs or mages with Dcap/Void? Yeah no. It doesn't scale, because people naturally get tankier as they level. Consider the EHP an ADC will have at level 6 to level 18, even building basically full glass-cannon. With a GA, you're looking at a measly 20 DPS, which a late game ADC will easily lifesteal that away. It was primarily an early game item just because it had more impact early than late.
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I did point out that AP obviously has additional effects, I was just illustrating how massively efficient (like 6-8x cost efficient) the Sunfire is, you have to weigh the additional value of AP yourself, though I will posit that even if you consider each of those skills at 4x value (to account for the fact that there are 3 other skills that potentially benefit from AP/AD), Sunfire is still more effective.
But the Wit's End comparison is a bit more direct. Sunfire giving 45 dmg is more or less the same as Wit's giving 150 on-hit, which would obviously be insanely good.
edit: oh yeah I forgot the nerf from 45 to 40 damage, anyways same difference, just slightly weaker
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It's efficient, but not on a champion without penetration. If it only does 30 (50 MR) or 20 (100 MR) damage per second, its efficiency falls off hard.
Again, by late game, innate regeneration and a health pot basically negates the Sunfire damage straight up, while champions have huge health pools compared to early level 6.
The nerfs target Sunfire's early game, which is when it's at its strongest, and where sunfire is immensely powerful (early objective fights and early pushing in lane).
Also the Wits comparison isn't entirely valid because it still gives multiplicative offensive stats (AS). Sunfire fulfills an entirely different niche.
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On January 15 2014 14:46 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 14:24 Alzadar wrote:
I contest the idea that Sunfire Cape ever falls off. It gives (gave) 45 flat magic damage in an AoE for only ~800 gold.
Similar point-blank AoE spells:
Karthus Defile requires 225 AP to match
Mundo Burning Agony requires 225 AP to match
Fiddlesticks Crowstorm requires 100 AP to match
Shyvana Burnout requires 225 bonus AD to match
Basically the cost efficiency of Sunfire damage is through the roof, most of these champs would have to pay 5k-6k gold to match Sunfire's 800g. Obviously they would get other benefits from the stats (except Mundo lol).
So the idea that it falls off just because it doesn't scale with other things you build is silly. It's like if Wit's End gave 150 damage on hit would you really claim it falls off? It still wouldn't scale with lifesteal or crit but it would just be so damn efficient that it would be good all game. I think you mean 40 magic damage (previously). It's now 25+lvl (or 26-43) dmg now. 40 magic damage almost certainly fell off, because of lack of scaling or penetration on the champions that bought it. By level 18, it deals the same amount of damage and, yes, it's still alot of dmgz for cost efficiency, but compared to the other major damage sources? 3-item ADCs or mages with Dcap/Void? Yeah no. It doesn't scale, because people naturally get tankier as they level. Consider the EHP an ADC will have at level 6 to level 18, even building basically full glass-cannon. With a GA, you're looking at a measly 20 DPS, which a late game ADC will easily lifesteal that away. It was primarily an early game item just because it had more impact early than late.
Right I was talking about the pre-patch Sunfire, I forgot the nerf to 40 damage though. Basically they are making Sunfire a bit more reasonable instead of totally bonkers #1 item for outtrading AD opponents.
It's silly to dimiss 20 true damage DPS just because the AD can lifesteal, of course you won't kill him just by standing next to him with a Sunfire, but it's 20 more true DPS that wouldn't have been there otherwise.
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While I admit Eve was too strong I don't think these changes are going to stop her from going ham on people. Might try out a trinity maybe gunblade on eve now. *shrug*
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On January 15 2014 14:55 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 14:46 Lord Tolkien wrote:On January 15 2014 14:24 Alzadar wrote:
I contest the idea that Sunfire Cape ever falls off. It gives (gave) 45 flat magic damage in an AoE for only ~800 gold.
Similar point-blank AoE spells:
Karthus Defile requires 225 AP to match
Mundo Burning Agony requires 225 AP to match
Fiddlesticks Crowstorm requires 100 AP to match
Shyvana Burnout requires 225 bonus AD to match
Basically the cost efficiency of Sunfire damage is through the roof, most of these champs would have to pay 5k-6k gold to match Sunfire's 800g. Obviously they would get other benefits from the stats (except Mundo lol).
So the idea that it falls off just because it doesn't scale with other things you build is silly. It's like if Wit's End gave 150 damage on hit would you really claim it falls off? It still wouldn't scale with lifesteal or crit but it would just be so damn efficient that it would be good all game. I think you mean 40 magic damage (previously). It's now 25+lvl (or 26-43) dmg now. 40 magic damage almost certainly fell off, because of lack of scaling or penetration on the champions that bought it. By level 18, it deals the same amount of damage and, yes, it's still alot of dmgz for cost efficiency, but compared to the other major damage sources? 3-item ADCs or mages with Dcap/Void? Yeah no. It doesn't scale, because people naturally get tankier as they level. Consider the EHP an ADC will have at level 6 to level 18, even building basically full glass-cannon. With a GA, you're looking at a measly 20 DPS, which a late game ADC will easily lifesteal that away. It was primarily an early game item just because it had more impact early than late. Right I was talking about the pre-patch Sunfire, I forgot the nerf to 40 damage though. Basically they are making Sunfire a bit more reasonable instead of totally bonkers #1 item for outtrading AD opponents. It's silly to dimiss 20 true damage DPS just because the AD can lifesteal, of course you won't kill him just by standing next to him with a Sunfire, but it's 20 more true DPS that wouldn't have been there otherwise.
I don't disagree. But again my point is that by late game, it's pretty measly whilst is much more impactful early on.
That is why it falls off: it's impact as an item decreases as the game goes on as people get tankier and people get more damage.
6 item Ashe (BT, IE, LW, SS, GA) with standard runes and masteries runs around with over 850 DPS.
Compare that to Sunfire. Yeah.
Now compare 1 item Ashe (Dorans, BT, Zerks) to Sunfire: 200 DPS. Old Sunfire basically does more damage to a team than Ashe does, while not including innate champion DPS and the tanky stats.
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The turret changes have me a little worried as someone who predominately plays mid and doesn't do much roaming. Hopefully it's still possible to push tower hard if I can't follow/choose not to follow opposition mid laner.
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On January 15 2014 15:08 JazzVortical wrote:
The turret changes have me a little worried as someone who predominately plays mid and doesn't do much roaming. Hopefully it's still possible to push tower hard if I can't follow/choose not to follow opposition mid laner.
Minions should do more damage as a rule, and your AAs against turret gain extra damage from AP (imo), and the loss of the bonus armor (and MR) should balance it, given your lack of ArPen (not that ADCs get extremely early LW early).
Maths need to be done for this, but it shouldn't be too bad. Just makes minion waves more important.
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On January 15 2014 14:56 Parnage wrote:
While I admit Eve was too strong I don't think these changes are going to stop her from going ham on people. Might try out a trinity maybe gunblade on eve now. *shrug*
I don't know why these items would be better now, they didn't change her scalings. All this really means is that magic pen doesn't apply to all her spells anymore. You won't get any more bonus damage now from getting some AD than you did before, only armor pen will benefit you more (but I probably wouldn't recommend that on Eve).
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The rise of Froggen once again
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So I learned tonight that so long as the other team doesn't pick Lucian, Sivir, Graves, Annie, or Thresh... Kog'Maw is actually still really good. And even if they pick those champions you can get away with Kog if you play smart.
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EPT
