EPT[Patch 4.1] Season 4 Start General Discussion - Page 154
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Lord Tolkien
United States12084 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On February 01 2014 13:09 GolemMadness wrote: Ok, but all that means is that CS on its own doesn't necessarily mean everything. If you have 30 CS 10 minutes in, 99% of the time it means you're doing horribly. Maybe my comprehension sucks, but I thought that was what Sufficiency was saying. I dunno, I dont think anyone will say "HEY! YOU DONT NEED TO FARM WELL!", but I also dont necessarily think farming is the key to winning. Obviously more creeps that you get in comparison to creeps you dont get is good. I dont think a creeps benchmarks makes that much sense. Is someone bad because they only got 60 CS at ten minutes but only allowed their opponent to get 30? Its relative. I farm terribly on Pantheon, yet for some reason I have a much higher winrate on him in comparison to champions i breeze by the 100cs per minute mark on like Morgana, Lux, Kha'Zix etc. My opponents get less creeps, I have a bigger map presence etc. I dunno, I used to think like that all the time, but I took a break for a bit to play DotA instead, and the effect is much more heavily pronounced because of denying, but if you were to ask a DotA player for a creeps benchmark they'd laugh in your face. Its relative, game to game. Hell, lots of lanes, or even situations in a game its better to just not get a creep because you have no idea where half their team is. | ||
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IamPryda
United States1186 Posts
Around say 20 mins what should you have | ||
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Yezzus
United States2318 Posts
On February 01 2014 13:23 IamPryda wrote: What about jungle cs? Assuming you not just power farming or ganking an extreme amount. Around say 20 mins what should you have 300 Seriously tho why do these questions exist? Every game is different | ||
MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On February 01 2014 13:24 Yezzus wrote: 300 Seriously tho why do these questions exist? Every game is different People want benchmarks because it gives them an indication of what they should be aiming for in general. "If I'm in a free farm lane, what numbers should I be hitting? If I'm in an aggressive lane, I'll lower it a bit, but I want to know approximately how well I should be doing." You are also going to explain to me where this 300 number came from or I am mod-actioning you for that shitty post. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On February 01 2014 11:25 Sufficiency wrote: I actually think with 6 players bruisers/tanks are weaker (think Twisted Treeline). Another DPS is probably the better choice. You would almost assuredly make another duo lane with a second zero cs support replacing the top laner. Your supports would have to be tanky. People would start playing more of the non traditional bruisers/tanks who can support (like say trundle) in response to the melee engage supports. But that is my best guess. The dps you bring in the second duo could be AP or AD. Though I suspect a preference towards AP because as the number of players increases so do the strength of AOE abilities and having two mages would be very powerful. Double jungle would be gold hamstrung because there are only so may camps to clear and because the enemy duo will be able to deny cs and get their own full support stream. Double bruiser lanes would be hamstrung by the same problems. They face today. | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23340 Posts
On February 01 2014 13:23 IamPryda wrote: What about jungle cs? Assuming your not just power farming or ganking an extreme amount. Around say 20 mins what should you have ~100 cs at 20 as a jungler is a decent amount its always relative as a jungler but you shouldn't get too much lower | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On February 01 2014 13:13 MoonBear wrote: Regardless of how the game goes, you should have several cs benchmarks in your head. Adjust accordingly as to how the game is going. For example, if you know your opponent is roaming you know the benchmark is perfect cs, and then you have to figure out a way to do better than that. If the lane involves lots of duelling, you adjust downwards instead. But you need that benchmark in your head to begin with to know what you want to compare against. You're thinking too much of "well what if X happened". CS is also a pure mechanical thing. If you have poor cs, regardless of the reason, it means you need to practise your mechanics. Completely disregarding cs as any indication of anything is also incredibly poor. You don't ignore your worker count in Starcraft "oh because maybe it's a proxy rax game" or something. You still have benchmarks you need to be hitting, and you just adjust your expectation depending on how the match is going. But if you're ignoring it completely that's a terrible attitude to have. I guess my stance seems a touch standoff-y. I agree farming is important. I just think that you should base your farming metrics in a game on "how many creeps did I safely try for that I missed?" rather than how much does my farm compare to some benchmark. I think Drones are a fair analogy for CSing. SCV's/Probes arent as good because I think its more complex than just mechanically getting the creep. Obviously, as a Zerg you want as many drones as you can get away with making. but many times, you just can't get away with making drones. If you see your terran opponent going five racks on one base you can't keep making drones, you need your next couple rounds of larva to be units. If you see your opponent gearing up to take an expansion, maybe you want some lings to try and deny it or hurt them somewhere else. If you see your opponent teching hard, then by all means, power drones and tech yourself. Obviosuly, the better the player you are, the more room for drones you manage to sneak in while still doing all those other things, but in lots of games a simple worker count doesn't necessarily decide a game. Is it better to have more drones? absolutely. Likewise, only get the CS that you can get without getting cleaved. I'd rather miss a CS, and lose a CS to an opponent while getting off free harass than just go even in CS the vast majority of the time. You do that a couple of times and you get some pretty serious lane dominance. When you have lane dominance, you can control the tempo of the game however you want; roaming, ganking, forcing objectives, whatever. I can't talk about 5v5 team play, but in soloqueue for sure, i think that is much stronger. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On February 01 2014 13:09 GolemMadness wrote: Ok, but all that means is that CS on its own doesn't necessarily mean everything. If you have 30 CS 10 minutes in, 99% of the time it means you're doing horribly. or it means you're a jungler or support. For jungler it varies dramatically from jungler to jungler, and how lanes are doing. If you're constantly covering midlane farm, as your mid lane is roaming (or dead), then your farm is going to be dramatically higher than if you were stuck in jungle. | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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silencefc
United States875 Posts
Not worrying about maximizing your farm may not seem like a big deal but its not taking advantage of all of your resources. "Its OK if my CC has maxed energy because my MULE management is not a good indicator of my marine control." Its still a part of the game you should worry about. You should be mad at yourself every time you miss a cs for no reason. You shouldn't have any idle time: farm, group, or push. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On February 01 2014 13:55 silencefc wrote: Missing CS is like letting workers idle. Not worrying about maximizing your farm may not seem like a big deal but its not taking advantage of all of your resources. "Its OK if my CC has maxed energy because my MULE management is not a good indicator of my marine control." Its still a part of the game you should worry about. You should be mad at yourself every time you miss a cs for no reason. You shouldn't have any idle time: farm, group, or push. This is literally how doublelift sounds like every time he's in lane in solo queue. *misses 1 cs out of like 20 under turret with varied minion health* "GOD DAMN I SUCK AT THIS GAME, FUCKING MISSING SO MUCH CS". | ||
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silencefc
United States875 Posts
On February 01 2014 14:00 wei2coolman wrote: This is literally how doublelift sounds like every time he's in lane in solo queue. *misses 1 cs out of like 20 under turret with varied minion health* "GOD DAMN I SUCK AT THIS GAME, FUCKING MISSING SO MUCH CS". One of the rare moments Dyrus shows emotion is when he misses cs for no reason. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On February 01 2014 13:48 wei2coolman wrote: or it means you're a jungler or support. For jungler it varies dramatically from jungler to jungler, and how lanes are doing. If you're constantly covering midlane farm, as your mid lane is roaming (or dead), then your farm is going to be dramatically higher than if you were stuck in jungle. Well yeah, the discussion is for laners who CS. | ||
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Chrispy
Canada5878 Posts
wuddafukriot also no loss prevented. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On February 01 2014 14:17 Chrispy wrote: Servers died and me and my whole team disconnected... I eventually reconnect and there's only two other people on my team who have reconnected and they're all 5 pushing our nexus. wuddafukriot also no loss prevented. QQ thread bud. | ||
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Yezzus
United States2318 Posts
On February 01 2014 13:28 MoonBear wrote: People want benchmarks because it gives them an indication of what they should be aiming for in general. "If I'm in a free farm lane, what numbers should I be hitting? If I'm in an aggressive lane, I'll lower it a bit, but I want to know approximately how well I should be doing." You are also going to explain to me where this 300 number came from or I am mod-actioning you for that shitty post. Oops i meant 30 | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On February 01 2014 13:18 iCanada wrote: Maybe my comprehension sucks, but I thought that was what Sufficiency was saying. I dunno, I dont think anyone will say "HEY! YOU DONT NEED TO FARM WELL!", but I also dont necessarily think farming is the key to winning. Obviously more creeps that you get in comparison to creeps you dont get is good. I dont think a creeps benchmarks makes that much sense. Is someone bad because they only got 60 CS at ten minutes but only allowed their opponent to get 30? Its relative. I farm terribly on Pantheon, yet for some reason I have a much higher winrate on him in comparison to champions i breeze by the 100cs per minute mark on like Morgana, Lux, Kha'Zix etc. My opponents get less creeps, I have a bigger map presence etc. I dunno, I used to think like that all the time, but I took a break for a bit to play DotA instead, and the effect is much more heavily pronounced because of denying, but if you were to ask a DotA player for a creeps benchmark they'd laugh in your face. Its relative, game to game. Hell, lots of lanes, or even situations in a game its better to just not get a creep because you have no idea where half their team is. Ok, but that's why it's a benchmark. IN GENERAL, x number is what you should aim for if you're mostly in lane and able to farm. Nobody's saying that you have to hit some number or you suck or anything. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
For nasus, with absolute free farm and tp I think 150-180 for first 10m and ~300 for every 10m after that is around the maximum. For most lanes though,100 for first 10 and 150+ for every 10 after is fine. | ||
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