EPTif you're a jungler, it's a little more difficult to say though.
[Patch 4.1] Season 4 Start General Discussion - Page 155
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
if you're a jungler, it's a little more difficult to say though. | ||
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MattBarry
United States4006 Posts
On February 01 2014 12:47 wei2coolman wrote: most tanky toplaner can beat him. Renekton can wreck him pretty hard, but those lanes you have totally dominate him, otherwise if he actually gets shiv+ie combo, he fucking absolutely wrecks face. Zed absolutely destroys him at like level 11 at least in my experience. You gotta make sure there are no friendly minions around though so you can actually hit q. Laning directly against him is pretty hard early game but it's not like anyone can stop zed from farming | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On February 01 2014 15:46 Amui wrote: Cs is relative, but unless the lane has been an absolute bloodbath(which does happen from time to time) 100/10m is benchmark without jungle, with 80+ being good. For nasus, with absolute free farm and tp I think 150-180 for first 10m and ~300 for every 10m after that is around the maximum. For most lanes though,100 for first 10 and 150+ for every 10 after is fine. Suppose that you aren't able to take your jungle as well There are a total of 12 CS every minute heading to lane(6 CS per wave every 30 seconds) with one extra CS every 3 waves. Minions get to the middle of the lane around 2:00 for side lanes and about 1:50 for mid.This means that if you never have to go back, you can achieve 101 CS after clearing the wave which arrives at 10 minutes. Because of the mechanics of most champions, going to farm the jungle, unless you're very fast, will almost guarantee missing some creeps. Its possible for some mids and tops but generally is something you do as you move through the jungle rather than as a dedicated tactic. This is especially true now that junglers all have conservation stacks and really need their big creeps to be available in order to maximize their gold. If you've made 80 CS while also actually laning against an enemy, you're doing really well because you're almost guaranteed to miss a wave or two due to backing and you're almost guaranteed to miss a creep or two due to trading. In general though, looking at your creep score as a general benchmark isn't valuable. While you need to get every CS you can, and you need to farm the jungle as you're moving through it (so long as it won't delay you to a fight) the defining metric of how you're doing on CS depends entirely on how the enemy is doing on CS. Additionally it depends on the champions you're using. Are you playing Cait against Vayne? If you're even, you're losing. If you don't have more tower damage than her (or haven't taken it) you're losing. It doesn't even matter how much actual CS you have. If you have 50 CS at 10 minutes but you've taken their tower and Vayne has 10 you're still winning. If you had to give up 50 CS in order to prevent vayne from getting 80 then you're doing amazing, you won that trade Most importantly though it whether or not the CS that was gained was not gained at the expense of other things. Slayer's post "There and Back Again" explains why using your CS as a metric can be poor. If you're in a game and saying "i need to get more CS because i don't have enough" then you are likely making a poor choice about what is happening in the game. So here is how you actually determine whether or not your CS is as good as it ought to be Count every CS you miss due to poor mechanics. Count every CS you miss due to poor decision making. Count every CS you miss because you were doing something pointless. Ignore your CS score at the end of the game. A low number is good, a high number is bad. Now some of the better players can tell me what a "low number" is and what a "high number" is. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On February 01 2014 15:57 MattBarry wrote: Zed absolutely destroys him at like level 11 at least in my experience. You gotta make sure there are no friendly minions around though so you can actually hit q. Laning directly against him is pretty hard early game but it's not like anyone can stop zed from farming Garen. It's so easy. | ||
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Chrispy
Canada5878 Posts
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ketchup
14521 Posts
On February 01 2014 16:33 Goumindong wrote: In general though, looking at your creep score as a general benchmark isn't valuable. So here is how you actually determine whether or not your CS is as good as it ought to be Count every CS you miss due to poor mechanics. Count every CS you miss due to poor decision making. Count every CS you miss because you were doing something pointless. Ignore your CS score at the end of the game. A low number is good, a high number is bad. Now some of the better players can tell me what a "low number" is and what a "high number" is. You contradict yourself in the same post. You say CS "isn't valuable", but then go on to explain how you keep track of it. What really annoyed me is that someone said that cs is "not a good indicator of anything". This is blatantly false. What the fuck kind of advice is that?? What kind of game are people playing that you'd recommend not to look at cs? What the fuck? How can anyone recommend that to anyone else looking to improve or play this game better? Anyone who says cs doesn't matter is not paying attention here. To simplify, it matters because it is your primary income source. That's ALL the reason anyone should need to properly last hit, and to keep up with last hitting throughout the game. I don't care how good you think you are or how many kills you are capable of getting. There should never ever be anyone saying that a player should not pay attention to their last hits. I don't mind if people are discussing things about what situation it is okay for you to be behind on last hits, and that each game needs to be adjusted accordingly. To oversimplify this, and say that "looking at your cs score is not valuable" is just plain bad advice, and I have no idea why anyone would attempt to defend that position. | ||
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Omnishroud
1073 Posts
On February 01 2014 15:46 Amui wrote: Cs is relative, but unless the lane has been an absolute bloodbath(which does happen from time to time) 100/10m is benchmark without jungle, with 80+ being good. For nasus, with absolute free farm and tp I think 150-180 for first 10m and ~300 for every 10m after that is around the maximum. For most lanes though,100 for first 10 and 150+ for every 10 after is fine. Wtf are you smoking? 150-180 in the first 10 minutes? There is 100 available in the damn lane. I mean, the first statement was bad enough with 100/10m being benchmark and all. Bitches if u aint only missing 1 CS in 10 minutes, ur a scrub. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On February 01 2014 17:09 Omnishroud wrote: Wtf are you smoking? 150-180 in the first 10 minutes? There is 100 available in the damn lane. I think he's talking about overall stack #. So around 50 to 60 q stacks. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On February 01 2014 16:57 ketchup wrote: You contradict yourself in the same post. You say CS "isn't valuable", but then go on to explain how you keep track of it. What really annoyed me is that someone said that cs is "not a good indicator of anything". This is blatantly false. What the fuck kind of advice is that?? What kind of game are people playing that you'd recommend not to look at cs? What the fuck? How can anyone recommend that to anyone else looking to improve or play this game better? Anyone who says cs doesn't matter is not paying attention here. To simplify, it matters because it is your primary income source. That's ALL the reason anyone should need to properly last hit, and to keep up with last hitting throughout the game. I don't care how good you think you are or how many kills you are capable of getting. There should never ever be anyone saying that a player should not pay attention to their last hits. I don't mind if people are discussing things about what situation it is okay for you to be behind on last hits, and that each game needs to be adjusted accordingly. To oversimplify this, and say that "looking at your cs score is not valuable" is just plain bad advice, and I have no idea why anyone would attempt to defend that position. Your CS score is not a valuable metric. Your CS missed score is a valuable metric. These things are not the same. In the first part, i explain why your CS score is not a valuable metric. It should be self evident why your "CS missed" score is a valuable metric | ||
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Omnishroud
1073 Posts
On February 01 2014 17:11 wei2coolman wrote: I think he's talking about overall stack #. So around 50 to 60 q stacks. That would make more sense if he didnt look like he was talking entirely about CS. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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wussleeQ
United States3130 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zzXm5QL.png) and counting edit: game disappeared after 2 hours. some guy saying it was a drop hack. i have no clue but that was a waste of time | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On February 01 2014 17:13 wei2coolman wrote: Cs missed is an impossible metric to measure. Eh, you can kind of keep track of it yourself or watch replays? I don't know how useful of a metric it is, as it seemingly only measures your mechanical skills and ability to last hit. There's a lot of things that are hard to measure like positioning and such that affect it, I noticed Aphro had pretty terribad CSing on Ziggs when I was watching the last of his Diamond promos yesterday though. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4119 Posts
Buildorder + skillorder for jungle Kayle pls. | ||
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
On February 01 2014 19:12 Fildun wrote: @Scip and Unseen Buildorder + skillorder for jungle Kayle pls. I already won a game with it, used 28/0/3 masteries (huehue no need defense with ult) and AP quints, AS reds, armor yellows + mr blues. Build order was spirit stone+boots>Sorcs+Nashor's>Lich Bane/Deathcap>Void Staff and whatever defensive item you want. I don't know if that's the best way, but it worked for me  Skill order I went Q>E>W>R, first level E. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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Fildun
Netherlands4119 Posts
On February 01 2014 19:28 Doctorbeat wrote: I already won a game with it, used 28/0/3 masteries (huehue no need defense with ult) and AP quints, AS reds, armor yellows + mr blues. Build order was spirit stone+boots>Sorcs+Nashor's>Lich Bane/Deathcap>Void Staff and whatever defensive item you want. I don't know if that's the best way, but it worked for me Skill order I went Q>E>W>R, first level E. Holy shit you have 31 mastery points???????????? | ||
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
On February 01 2014 19:52 Fildun wrote: Holy shit you have 31 mastery points???????????? I was trying to recall from memory ;..; 27/0/3 then  | ||
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