EPT[Patch 3.15] Yasuo General Discussion - Page 216
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On January 14 2014 05:09 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: It's quite common to play greedy for farm and end up dying for it, but getting more CS as a result. It's even more common to die and lose lots of CS to tower, or to lose tons of CS because you are too low to get close to the wave. Regardless, you can't just make a dumb statement like "Vayne with DShield will get only half as much CS as Caitlyn with DBlade" without even anecdotes to back it up. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On January 14 2014 05:39 Sufficiency wrote: Speaking of which, I really don't understaand why ADCs do not start with Doran's Shield in soloQ. I see it somewhat often. I think it's good on Vayne but less so on a lot of others. I've seen DShield Caitlyn and that I just don't get at all. | ||
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MCMilo
United States365 Posts
When Vayne has a Doran's Shield and your fellow laner is passive as well, both of you don't even have a chance to go aggressive because of -8 AD. The support guy will just heal or shield and watch you lose last hits constantly and tada you lost the lane anyway. Surviving the lane DOES NOT MEAN you are keeping the lane more even. When Vayne has a Doran's Shield and your fellow laner is aggressive, the aggressive support has to BECOME a passive support for absolutely no reason other than "this jerk bought Doran's Shield" because the enemy will simply target their spells on the aggressive support if he does go aggressive. Boom the support becomes fucking useless. There is pretty much no scenario that supports Doran's Shield over the Doran's Blade. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
get both y/n? | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On January 14 2014 05:45 MCMilo wrote: But here's the kicker... You say Doran's Shield has the better raw combat stats, but in terms of the LANE the Doran's Blade will always keep pushing due to the better OFFENSIVE stats. This simply means any FIGHT that would make Doran's Shield useful is nullified completely because the enemy laners won't EVER fight you back without additional creep pressure. So basically you either keep farming creeps under tower (get harassed to shit again), OR you fight under 3 caster minions (or more), which means you've already lost under that scenario. When Vayne has a Doran's Shield and your fellow laner is passive as well, both of you don't even have a chance to go aggressive because of -8 AD. The support guy will just heal or shield and watch you lose last hits constantly and tada you lost the lane anyway. Surviving the lane DOES NOT MEAN you are keeping the lane more even. When Vayne has a Doran's Shield and your fellow laner is aggressive, the aggressive support has to BECOME a passive support for absolutely no reason other than "this jerk bought Doran's Shield" because the enemy will simply target their spells on the aggressive support if he does go aggressive. Boom the support becomes fucking useless. There is pretty much no scenario that supports Doran's Shield over the Doran's Blade. You're making loads of assumptions and arriving a conclusion that is only useful if all your assumptions are true. If the enemy AD is constantly pushing && your support is weaker than theirs && you can't make any good trades && your jungler completely ignores your unwarded lane that is pushed to your turret constantly && you miss lots of CS under tower && if you had bought a Blade instead of Shield these things wouldn't be true, then Blade is better than Shield. | ||
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Kyrie
1594 Posts
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MCMilo
United States365 Posts
EDIT: To Cheep | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On January 14 2014 05:45 MCMilo wrote: But here's the kicker... You say Doran's Shield has the better raw combat stats, but in terms of the LANE the Doran's Blade will always keep pushing due to the better OFFENSIVE stats. This simply means any FIGHT that would make Doran's Shield useful is nullified completely because the enemy laners won't EVER fight you back without additional creep pressure. So basically you either keep farming creeps under tower (get harassed to shit again), OR you fight under 3 caster minions (or more), which means you've already lost under that scenario. When Vayne has a Doran's Shield and your fellow laner is passive as well, both of you don't even have a chance to go aggressive because of -8 AD. The support guy will just heal or shield and watch you lose last hits constantly and tada you lost the lane anyway. Surviving the lane DOES NOT MEAN you are keeping the lane more even. When Vayne has a Doran's Shield and your fellow laner is aggressive, the aggressive support has to BECOME a passive support for absolutely no reason other than "this jerk bought Doran's Shield" because the enemy will simply target their spells on the aggressive support if he does go aggressive. Boom the support becomes fucking useless. There is pretty much no scenario that supports Doran's Shield over the Doran's Blade. But aren't there ADC's who already play passive and get shoved to their tower pretty much regardless? Lets say Kogmaw vs Lucian for example. Kog isn't going to win those trades regardless of who his support is and what items he opened with. Playing passive, getting as much CS as possible and winning later in the game is the correct way for Kog to play. So in that situation, wouldn't Kog benefit from itemization that would give him more defense against Lucians poke and more combat stats in an actual fight? | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On January 14 2014 05:57 Kyrie wrote: i can't speak with authority as to whether shield is ever a good alternative to blade, but i would like to point out that having 8 more ad does not at all mean the wave is suddenly pushing 24/7 due to offensive stats, unless you consider the regen per auto offensive. theorycrafting is good and all but it can get out of hand real fast, and sweeping generalizations in general (see what i did there) detract heavily from an argument with the popular current supports first level 2 is a REALLY big advantage atm, and 8 ad at level 1 is a bigger advantage for killing creeps than it will be at any other point in the game. like Annie getting level 2 first can mean you have to wait for it to push to tower to do any auto attack csing. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On January 14 2014 05:57 MCMilo wrote: None of the stats on Doran's Blade is actually unique so no. EDIT: To Cheep wtf i thought they were like all unique gg me orz | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
On January 14 2014 05:57 Alzadar wrote: You're making loads of assumptions and arriving a conclusion that is only useful if all your assumptions are true. If the enemy AD is constantly pushing && your support is weaker than theirs && you can't make any good trades && your jungler completely ignores your unwarded lane that is pushed to your turret constantly && you miss lots of CS under tower && if you had bought a Blade instead of Shield these things wouldn't be true, then Blade is better than Shield. None of these are particularly outlandish assumptions. If i see a shield opening I'd opt to push harder since you'll have a hard time last hitting under tower without the extra ad (unless you went for pure ad runes instead of vamp???), and I can rush a lvl2 and zone you out. You can't make good trades because you have a shield and I have a blade, and consequently your 2v2 is weaker and possibly a level behind. Jungler intervention is perhaps another matter but when you're pushed to the guy's tower your support should be warding anyways. edit: cheep i think only dshield has a unique passive out of the doran's items? | ||
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trollbone
France1905 Posts
in teamfight i think sona has a better team presence, get a chalice and spam everything. Karma has some merit in poke comp and that's why she is picked on OGN | ||
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MCMilo
United States365 Posts
On January 14 2014 05:57 Alzadar wrote: You're making loads of assumptions and arriving a conclusion that is only useful if all your assumptions are true. If the enemy AD is constantly pushing && your support is weaker than theirs && you can't make any good trades && your jungler completely ignores your unwarded lane that is pushed to your turret constantly && you miss lots of CS under tower && if you had bought a Blade instead of Shield these things wouldn't be true, then Blade is better than Shield. Many ADs that are currently popular can push extremely fast (Lucian, Sivir, Jinx, Caitlyn). Ezreal won't necessarily push fast, but his tower harass is unparalleled and you will start to drop health really fast. The support will be weaker by default due to the weaknesses of Doran's Shield. What this means is that the enemy will have a nice middle ground of survivability and damage with the Doran's Blade so they can fight 2v2s relatively normally. With the Doran's Shield however, it simply puts too much survivability on the AD and no damage, which hurts ANY possible 2v2s (the support will just get focused, the enemy will take less damage, etc). This also means you can't make any trades (supports will be forced to do shit like 5 health potions just to stay alive). I've already said that BECAUSE you don't have those offensive stats, you can't ever trade efficiently simply due to the enemy having lane control. Unwarded? Pushed? I've already mentioned that simply popping summoners (without getting stupidly greedy with them), the enemy will survive almost every scenario because they will always be full hp when the jungler is there to gank for the lane with the Doran's Shield. Less damage, enemy having more HP, simply impossible. Missing CS will always hold true because with a Doran's Shield you become less vulnerable, but have less windows of last hitting under tower, which will get pretty dicey even with a Doran's Blade. You will generally (most definitely) require more hits to kill certain creeps (Cannon + Melee creeps in particular), which means once all 5-6 creeps come under tower constantly, you cannot magically get as many last hits as you would life without taking an exorbitant amount of damage from the enemy laner. The way to survive a losing lane is to buy more Doran's Blades (3 is pretty crazy though) and that has always been true. What makes Doran's Shield so different in this case is at levels 1 through 3(can go up to 6 but whatever), Doran's Shield may be the only item in your inventory to help a laning phase that's 3 to 7 minutes long. What this means is that for 3 to 7 minutes, you have no chance of actually manfighting the enemy AD+Support and you just let them do whatever the fuck they want for 3 to 7 minutes and then through their lane control, they can back whenever they want and come back with even more items (Vamp scepter, boots, another Doran's Blade, potions) and they'll just simply ramp up the aggression with the better items. When you recall at the same time (or a bit later) to match their recall timing, you will have less gold to work with in the first place. Of course buying another Doran's Shield is a waste, but on another note, what about buying a Doran's Blade? How is that any different from saying "I need two Doran's Blades to not let this go to shit"? At levels 1-3 at least a weak laner like Vayne with a Doran's Blade as a chance of making a play at the 3 minute mark while trading harass very aggressively (this means that for example you force yourself (as an AD) to 50% hp and make the enemy AD 70% hp), BUT this would be the chance for your jungler to gank a 70% hp enemy laner rather than just playing passively with Doran's Shield and letting the enemy have 100% HP. This is what it means to keep the enemy honest with a Doran's Blade opening. Doran's Shield will never have any of these options open to them WHILE having the various weaknesses I already pointed out. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4124 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On January 14 2014 06:12 Nos- wrote: None of these are particularly outlandish assumptions. If i see a shield opening I'd opt to push harder since you'll have a hard time last hitting under tower without the extra ad (unless you went for pure ad runes instead of vamp???), and I can rush a lvl2 and zone you out. You can't make good trades because you have a shield and I have a blade, and consequently your 2v2 is weaker and possibly a level behind. Jungler intervention is perhaps another matter but when you're pushed to the guy's tower your support should be warding anyways. edit: cheep i think only dshield has a unique passive out of the doran's items? It isn't very clear that the MM starting dshield would lose the trade, especially if he's focused by the ennemy MM and support. Honestly, a MM taking arpen marks and doran blade would have the problem pushing/last hitting under tower. I doubt many people would consider that he would automatically lose the lane because he took arpen marks. | ||
AsmodeusXI
United States15536 Posts
On January 14 2014 06:45 Sufficiency wrote: I actually think Amumu is better. His W does more damage to tanks and his R has longer duration. BUT BEARS. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
it's a boar | ||
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