EPTRiot nerfed the Mage supports because they could not disambiguate the extra gold from the assist streaks (and stacking gold items) from the power of the champions themselves. It's little more than that
[Patch 3.15] Yasuo General Discussion - Page 214
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Riot nerfed the Mage supports because they could not disambiguate the extra gold from the assist streaks (and stacking gold items) from the power of the champions themselves. It's little more than that | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
It's the equivalent of marine micro vs banelings, if you're really good and a little lucky you can keep most of your marines alive and force Zerg to spend tons of gas on banes instead of tech, but one misclick and blam you lose 20 marines. If you're friggin' MKP go ahead and have your insane bio control (then lose because your strategy sucks), but otherwise play it safe. If you're Sona vs Leona and fall behind, there's not much you can do. Leona gets ahead, gets levels in W and takes no damage because free resists are kinda good. Every 13 seconds she throws out an E, if it hits is going to be a kill or force Sona/AD out of lane unless there's a jungler. Thresh isn't quite as bad, but if you get hooked you're screwed as well. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
power cord just doesn't have the "get the fuck off me" umpf that it used to. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On January 14 2014 01:59 ticklishmusic wrote: Don't play Sona vs. Thresh/ Leona, too much risk for the potential reward. It's the equivalent of marine micro vs banelings, if you're really good and a little lucky you can keep most of your marines alive and force Zerg to spend tons of gas on banes instead of tech, but one misclick and blam you lose 20 marines. If you're friggin' MKP go ahead and have your insane bio control (then lose because your strategy sucks), but otherwise play it safe. If you're Sona vs Leona and fall behind, there's not much you can do. Leona gets ahead, gets levels in W and takes no damage because free resists are kinda good. Every 13 seconds she throws out an E, if it hits is going to be a kill or force Sona/AD out of lane unless there's a jungler. Thresh isn't quite as bad, but if you get hooked you're screwed as well. Honestly she doesn't even need to throw an E. Leona just needs to walk up when the opposing ADC is about to CS and tell him "nope you can't CS under my watch" and there is nothing Sona can do about it. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I've been theorycrafting the idea of doing different ADC openers, because I'm not too impressed with the Dorans Blade start right now. I'm looking at the idea of opening Dorans Shield on more passive early game ADCs, especially ones that don't have AD ratios, such as Tristana. The concept is that Dorans Shield gives more HP, much more regen, and the 8 damage off autoattacks is better vs. aggressive lanes than 8 AD is, since you're blocking 8 damage from 2 peoples attacks instead of adding 8 damage to 1 persons attack. Here's my question though. Is the 8 lost AD going to make last hitting too difficult? What do people think about that? I know there's some magic to you wanting X amount of AD to be able to last hit under tower easily early game and I don't know what that number is, which is why I'm asking. | ||
LaNague
Germany9118 Posts
Q her for 60 dmg? While being one of the juciest champs to gank/allin. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23448 Posts
Outside of lane, sona can be a strong teamfighter especially with ult, however you need to be tanky enough to get that damage and get in position to get the ult out without insta dying. This is closely tied to how well you do in lane. This is probably why sona is either OP or never played. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On January 14 2014 03:07 Ketara wrote: I have a question for the better ADC players than me out there. I've been theorycrafting the idea of doing different ADC openers, because I'm not too impressed with the Dorans Blade start right now. I'm looking at the idea of opening Dorans Shield on more passive early game ADCs, especially ones that don't have AD ratios, such as Tristana. The concept is that Dorans Shield gives more HP, much more regen, and the 8 damage off autoattacks is better vs. aggressive lanes than 8 AD is, since you're blocking 8 damage from 2 peoples attacks instead of adding 8 damage to 1 persons attack. Here's my question though. Is the 8 lost AD going to make last hitting too difficult? What do people think about that? I know there's some magic to you wanting X amount of AD to be able to last hit under tower easily early game and I don't know what that number is, which is why I'm asking. Though i don't main ADC, I've seen Doran shield opening on Vayne when mathched against Caitlyn or others that can bully her hard pre-6. It seems to work in a way where you're able to farm safely which is a huge plus for Vayne since she really needs it. I think the -8 AD is going to hurt you, if you already struggle with cs'ing. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On January 14 2014 03:07 Ketara wrote: I have a question for the better ADC players than me out there. I've been theorycrafting the idea of doing different ADC openers, because I'm not too impressed with the Dorans Blade start right now. I'm looking at the idea of opening Dorans Shield on more passive early game ADCs, especially ones that don't have AD ratios, such as Tristana. The concept is that Dorans Shield gives more HP, much more regen, and the 8 damage off autoattacks is better vs. aggressive lanes than 8 AD is, since you're blocking 8 damage from 2 peoples attacks instead of adding 8 damage to 1 persons attack. Here's my question though. Is the 8 lost AD going to make last hitting too difficult? What do people think about that? I know there's some magic to you wanting X amount of AD to be able to last hit under tower easily early game and I don't know what that number is, which is why I'm asking. It doesn't really change anything.It is more of a comfort thing atm to go blade. | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
The real problem with sona these days is that she is a slow ass character. let's take for example sona/adc vs leona/adc the fighting capacity of both teams are fairly easy to judge, sona's lane wins at level 1, and loses for the next 17 levels. sona's lane doesn't want to straight up fight, but push the lane, to prevent leona from getting the brush control. IF they manage to do that, they can pull ahead in the lane thanks to the harass, but they are very very vulnerable to ganks since sona is slow as fk and made of paper. (point aside, sona/adc wins vs leona/adc if sona's team is not greedy and ready to blow their flash to avoid leona's ult) this effect is magnified in 2v1 lanes, how often is the sona caught by a flash taunt or other random cc and just dies while the adc is running for his life? | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On January 14 2014 03:07 Ketara wrote: I have a question for the better ADC players than me out there. I've been theorycrafting the idea of doing different ADC openers, because I'm not too impressed with the Dorans Blade start right now. I'm looking at the idea of opening Dorans Shield on more passive early game ADCs, especially ones that don't have AD ratios, such as Tristana. The concept is that Dorans Shield gives more HP, much more regen, and the 8 damage off autoattacks is better vs. aggressive lanes than 8 AD is, since you're blocking 8 damage from 2 peoples attacks instead of adding 8 damage to 1 persons attack. Here's my question though. Is the 8 lost AD going to make last hitting too difficult? What do people think about that? I know there's some magic to you wanting X amount of AD to be able to last hit under tower easily early game and I don't know what that number is, which is why I'm asking. I support main instead of ADC and generally don't pick weaker ADC's when I do so I am not sure. It is very likely that ADC's that need to farm and are in a difficult lane would do very well with a D shield instead of a D blade. As far as I can tell the HP/5 between them, even if you're attacking a good deal is about equal. At level 3 an ADC will attack about .7 times per second. So if you are always able to auto attack when you can that is about 10.5 HP/5. Doran's Shield provides 10 HP/5 even when not last hitting so until you've gotten extra attack speed and have a wave the shield is better for sustain. It also provides much better effectiveness on a trade (IIRC the -8 damage is applied after resistances and so is stronger than +8 AD) as well as more HP. The weakness it has is that because it does not have AD when you're not trading, but rather fighting in a situation where you're not the one taking damage (good positioning or your support is out of position) your DPS will be significantly lower which will reduce your ability to threaten them/generate kills. This is probably what you have to worry about most, because ideally your support will be going D shield and attempting to use their body/abilities to prevent you from taking damage. | ||
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trollbone
France1905 Posts
It's at 6 the real problem because with all her cc she can chain lock you down tresh is the same with less cc Blitz is THE problem, i think if u check every site that list winrate against champions u will see a 35% winrate vs blitz The difference is that he pulls you, tresh and leona go on you. people are a little too pessimist about the state of sona she is still good, that ult wins you game | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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trollbone
France1905 Posts
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MCMilo
United States365 Posts
On January 14 2014 03:39 nafta wrote: It doesn't really change anything.It is more of a comfort thing atm to go blade. The best thing to look at item builds for AD is to look at a single goal: How will I win / stay even / not fall behind in last hits?? What DShield accomplishes over DBlade is three things: 1) 20 more HP 2) You regen more if the enemy AD doesn't autoattack the creeps 3 times within 5 seconds. 3) 8 Damage block 20 extra HP is kinda useless. 8 damage block does have its merits, but trading it off for 8 damage is complete nonsense. AND when the enemy AD hits you it's essentially a 3 damage block because the enemy AD will lifesteal+life-on-hit at LEAST 5 hp each time that guy hits you, which is the only time the damage block actually procs (useless), and you can't fight back because an 8 AD differential early game is really fucking high. The second problem is the regen component. After they're done harassing you (you can't fight back with 8 AD differential, but good luck with that), you regen back up away from the enemy AD. Obviously, the next thing to do is to push the lane constantly and shove it to your tower because of two things: 1) When your ally jungler ganks you, the enemy laners will most likely have full hp. Even in the WORST positioning in the game, they simply pop their summoners and they can't die because they're full hp and you're sitting on your damn shield. 2) Last hitting under tower can get quite difficult once you're forced to hit creeps in an unreasonable way. It will screw up your own last hitting, and it will be easier for the enemy laners to harass you under tower because you force yourself into last hitting in a very predictable pattern, which means you actually take MORE harass, which pretty much nullifies any pros on shield except for ONE factor, which is not dying. What "not dying" does is that when you get behind in last hits BECAUSE of the item start that you did, you're fucked anyway! Doran Shield on Vayne vs Caitlyn won't ever actually work out for Vayne because Caitlyn will simply increase the aggression and you can't do anything about it. Doran's Blade (or 2) in a bad lane will at least keep the enemy honest about overextending and trying to harass you out of last hits. Doran's Shield doesn't accomplish anything that Blade can't except for not dying, which is simply asking the enemy botlane (+enemy jungler) to just walk all over your stupid face and you get even more behind in last hits. A 0-0-0 Vayne that is 50 cs against a 100 cs Caitlyn is 100% worse than a 0-2-0 Vayne that is 80 vs 100. AND EVEN THEN what you actually want with Vayne is the magical bork timing window and shield screws that up too (waste of 440 gold sup?). Doran's Blade is simply more well-rounded in lane and doesn't just let the enemy take their sweet ass time pooping on your tier 1 tower. | ||
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