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On January 14 2014 03:48 Sponkz wrote:
There are several factors to account for, before you talk about why Sona is shit. Her movement speed, the changed scaling, her base stats, more AP-oriented supports etc. All these factors put together makes her shit.
Shit would be like. Never played for a million years. Which isnt the case. She just requires so much spacing knowledge to be usable.
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@mcmilo Except you missed a big thing in that specific matchup.Since you will be pushed really hard the entire lane phase the doran blade damage will not be enough to 1 hit ranged creeps anyway so it doesn't change shit except you will be healthier.Why would shield screw up your bork timing?You just get a shield instead of blade lol.
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On January 14 2014 04:32 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 03:48 Sponkz wrote:
There are several factors to account for, before you talk about why Sona is shit. Her movement speed, the changed scaling, her base stats, more AP-oriented supports etc. All these factors put together makes her shit. Shit would be like. Never played for a million years. Which isnt the case. She just requires so much spacing knowledge to be usable.
I highly doubt she will be picked once on this patch in EU+NA LCS + OGN winter where there aren't 2+ support bans. that does not make her shit so I guess in that sense you are right but I feel like you are confusing hyperbole.
like what match up would you purposefully pick her for right now?
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On January 14 2014 04:38 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 04:32 wei2coolman wrote:On January 14 2014 03:48 Sponkz wrote:
There are several factors to account for, before you talk about why Sona is shit. Her movement speed, the changed scaling, her base stats, more AP-oriented supports etc. All these factors put together makes her shit. Shit would be like. Never played for a million years. Which isnt the case. She just requires so much spacing knowledge to be usable. I highly doubt she will be picked once on this patch in EU+NA LCS + OGN winter where there aren't 2+ support bans. that does not make her shit so I guess in that sense you are right but I feel like you are confusing hyperbole. like what match up would you purposefully pick her for right now?
I suck at ranged support. I'd never pick her personally. But as long as she has game changing ult, she'll always be useful to a certain extent. Similar to mumu.
She works fine in 2v1 lanes still, so aslong as they don't touch her ult she can always be run in weaker 2 lanes if the 2v1 is set right.
Can run her in weak 2v2 lanes, like against vayne.
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But creeps will rarely come into the damage ranges you say nafta. Some creeps will be slighty lower HP, a few creeps will be around 70-80% hp and THOSE creeps are the difference makers in the CS differential. 80 vs 50 in a 12 minute scenario is (not counting siege creeps), is out of a 126 total creeps, which means you missed on average MORE than 1 creep per wave. So in early game, let's just average it out to like 17 gold? idk that just sounds reasonable, which equates to 510 gold?? And that gold differential is what is meant that Doran's Shield will absolutely destroy your bork timing because it will be later than expected, and the enemy laners will just farm more gold than you because of your passivity.
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2v1 logic seems sound but I dunno the ins and outs of whats good for that since I have literally never played a (non d/c) 2v1.
Vayne still dependant on her support, the trinity and or nami can still dumpster Sona with Vayne depending on your adc.
fuck it reminds me of when Sona was the de facto best support for Vayne because she could practically 2v1 the lane, how times have changed lol
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Baa?21244 Posts
Is there no merit in getting both Doran's Blade and Doran's Shield and then skipping the vamp scepter on a hero that doesn't' necessarily want botrk/bt super early?
People do it top lane often, it could be worth exploring for bot lane ADC, esp. since it does save you 350 gold compared to a vamp sceptre after the first Doran
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On January 14 2014 04:57 Slusher wrote:
2v1 logic seems sound but I dunno the ins and outs of whats good for that since I have literally never played a (non d/c) 2v1.
Vayne still dependant on her support, the trinity and or nami can still dumpster Sona with Vayne depending on your adc.
If you run something like cait sona, you could probably do okay against something like thresh vayne, just due to sheer range advantage. Like I said though. Sona in 2v2 is tightrope walk. You have to try significantly harder than other support to come out even.
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On January 14 2014 04:59 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 04:57 Slusher wrote:
2v1 logic seems sound but I dunno the ins and outs of whats good for that since I have literally never played a (non d/c) 2v1.
Vayne still dependant on her support, the trinity and or nami can still dumpster Sona with Vayne depending on your adc. If you run something like cait sona, you could probably do okay against something like thresh vayne, just due to sheer range advantage. Like I said though. Sona in 2v2 is tightrope walk. You have to try significantly harder than other support to come out even.
I'd rather be Karma or mayyyybe Taric, idk I don't like Caitlyn lanes zz. (assuming Annie banned ofc)
Karma is really good vs. supports who want brush control and Taric is good counter initiate.
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On January 14 2014 04:26 MCMilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 03:39 nafta wrote:On January 14 2014 03:07 Ketara wrote:
I have a question for the better ADC players than me out there.
I've been theorycrafting the idea of doing different ADC openers, because I'm not too impressed with the Dorans Blade start right now.
I'm looking at the idea of opening Dorans Shield on more passive early game ADCs, especially ones that don't have AD ratios, such as Tristana. The concept is that Dorans Shield gives more HP, much more regen, and the 8 damage off autoattacks is better vs. aggressive lanes than 8 AD is, since you're blocking 8 damage from 2 peoples attacks instead of adding 8 damage to 1 persons attack.
Here's my question though.
Is the 8 lost AD going to make last hitting too difficult? What do people think about that?
I know there's some magic to you wanting X amount of AD to be able to last hit under tower easily early game and I don't know what that number is, which is why I'm asking. It doesn't really change anything.It is more of a comfort thing atm to go blade. -snip- A 0-0-0 Vayne that is 50 cs against a 100 cs Caitlyn is 100% worse than a 0-2-0 Vayne that is 80 vs 100. AND EVEN THEN what you actually want with Vayne is the magical bork timing window and shield screws that up too (waste of 440 gold sup?). Doran's Blade is simply more well-rounded in lane and doesn't just let the enemy take their sweet ass time pooping on your tier 1 tower.
This is just a random, contrived example that is totally useless for theorycrafting. Why would you get less CS with no deaths versus 2 deaths? Not to mention 2 deaths vs Caitlyn as Vayne is probably going to mean your tower. I've played Vayne v Cait with DShield 2 times or so in the past week and the CS doesn't end up anything like that.
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On January 14 2014 05:00 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 04:59 wei2coolman wrote:On January 14 2014 04:57 Slusher wrote:
2v1 logic seems sound but I dunno the ins and outs of whats good for that since I have literally never played a (non d/c) 2v1.
Vayne still dependant on her support, the trinity and or nami can still dumpster Sona with Vayne depending on your adc. If you run something like cait sona, you could probably do okay against something like thresh vayne, just due to sheer range advantage. Like I said though. Sona in 2v2 is tightrope walk. You have to try significantly harder than other support to come out even. I'd rather be Karma or mayyyybe Taric, idk I don't like Caitlyn lanes zz. (assuming Annie banned ofc) Karma is really good vs. supports who want brush control and Taric is good counter initiate.
If your solely talking about lane. Of course karma is better, but Sona has aoe stun. That is fucking hugeeeee. Sacrificing some lane presence because you can get away with it for teamfight strength is hardly unheard of.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On January 14 2014 05:01 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 04:26 MCMilo wrote:On January 14 2014 03:39 nafta wrote:On January 14 2014 03:07 Ketara wrote:
I have a question for the better ADC players than me out there.
I've been theorycrafting the idea of doing different ADC openers, because I'm not too impressed with the Dorans Blade start right now.
I'm looking at the idea of opening Dorans Shield on more passive early game ADCs, especially ones that don't have AD ratios, such as Tristana. The concept is that Dorans Shield gives more HP, much more regen, and the 8 damage off autoattacks is better vs. aggressive lanes than 8 AD is, since you're blocking 8 damage from 2 peoples attacks instead of adding 8 damage to 1 persons attack.
Here's my question though.
Is the 8 lost AD going to make last hitting too difficult? What do people think about that?
I know there's some magic to you wanting X amount of AD to be able to last hit under tower easily early game and I don't know what that number is, which is why I'm asking. It doesn't really change anything.It is more of a comfort thing atm to go blade. -snip- A 0-0-0 Vayne that is 50 cs against a 100 cs Caitlyn is 100% worse than a 0-2-0 Vayne that is 80 vs 100. AND EVEN THEN what you actually want with Vayne is the magical bork timing window and shield screws that up too (waste of 440 gold sup?). Doran's Blade is simply more well-rounded in lane and doesn't just let the enemy take their sweet ass time pooping on your tier 1 tower. This is just a random, contrived example that is totally useless for theorycrafting. Why would you get less CS with no deaths versus 2 deaths? Not to mention 2 deaths vs Caitlyn as Vayne is probably going to mean your tower. I've played Vayne v Cait with DShield 2 times or so in the past week and the CS doesn't end up anything like that.
It's quite common to play greedy for farm and end up dying for it, but getting more CS as a result.
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On January 14 2014 04:26 MCMilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 03:39 nafta wrote:On January 14 2014 03:07 Ketara wrote:
I have a question for the better ADC players than me out there.
I've been theorycrafting the idea of doing different ADC openers, because I'm not too impressed with the Dorans Blade start right now.
I'm looking at the idea of opening Dorans Shield on more passive early game ADCs, especially ones that don't have AD ratios, such as Tristana. The concept is that Dorans Shield gives more HP, much more regen, and the 8 damage off autoattacks is better vs. aggressive lanes than 8 AD is, since you're blocking 8 damage from 2 peoples attacks instead of adding 8 damage to 1 persons attack.
Here's my question though.
Is the 8 lost AD going to make last hitting too difficult? What do people think about that?
I know there's some magic to you wanting X amount of AD to be able to last hit under tower easily early game and I don't know what that number is, which is why I'm asking. It doesn't really change anything.It is more of a comfort thing atm to go blade. The best thing to look at item builds for AD is to look at a single goal: How will I win / stay even / not fall behind in last hits?? What DShield accomplishes over DBlade is three things: 1) 20 more HP 2) You regen more if the enemy AD doesn't autoattack the creeps 3 times within 5 seconds. 3) 8 Damage block 20 extra HP is kinda useless. 8 damage block does have its merits, but trading it off for 8 damage is complete nonsense. AND when the enemy AD hits you it's essentially a 3 damage block because the enemy AD will lifesteal+life-on-hit at LEAST 5 hp each time that guy hits you, which is the only time the damage block actually procs (useless), and you can't fight back because an 8 AD differential early game is really fucking high. The second problem is the regen component. After they're done harassing you (you can't fight back with 8 AD differential, but good luck with that), you regen back up away from the enemy AD. Obviously, the next thing to do is to push the lane constantly and shove it to your tower because of two things: 1) When your ally jungler ganks you, the enemy laners will most likely have full hp. Even in the WORST positioning in the game, they simply pop their summoners and they can't die because they're full hp and you're sitting on your damn shield. 2) Last hitting under tower can get quite difficult once you're forced to hit creeps in an unreasonable way. It will screw up your own last hitting, and it will be easier for the enemy laners to harass you under tower because you force yourself into last hitting in a very predictable pattern, which means you actually take MORE harass, which pretty much nullifies any pros on shield except for ONE factor, which is not dying. What "not dying" does is that when you get behind in last hits BECAUSE of the item start that you did, you're fucked anyway! Doran Shield on Vayne vs Caitlyn won't ever actually work out for Vayne because Caitlyn will simply increase the aggression and you can't do anything about it. Doran's Blade (or 2) in a bad lane will at least keep the enemy honest about overextending and trying to harass you out of last hits. Doran's Shield doesn't accomplish anything that Blade can't except for not dying, which is simply asking the enemy botlane (+enemy jungler) to just walk all over your stupid face and you get even more behind in last hits. A 0-0-0 Vayne that is 50 cs against a 100 cs Caitlyn is 100% worse than a 0-2-0 Vayne that is 80 vs 100. AND EVEN THEN what you actually want with Vayne is the magical bork timing window and shield screws that up too (waste of 440 gold sup?). Doran's Blade is simply more well-rounded in lane and doesn't just let the enemy take their sweet ass time pooping on your tier 1 tower.
I'm really interested in the last hitting under tower bits, but I think you are vastly underestimating the sustain given by a dorans shield.
For example, looking at this Vayne vs. Caitlyn that's been mentioned. Caits attackspeed in the early lane phase is going to be about 0.7, this works out to be about 2.1 HP per second if she's standing still autoattacking.
You get a little lifesteal on the 8 AD, but even at 6% lifesteal that's only an extra 0.336 HP per second. So, about 2.4 HP regen.
The Dorans Shield gives 2 HP per second regen. So in order for that extra 0.4 per second regen to beat the Dorans Shields extra 20 max HP, the fight has to last 50 seconds. Fights don't last 50 seconds.
And if you aren't AAing at every available opportunity, the passive regen from the shield is beating the dblade, probably by a lot depending on circumstances.
Also in fights if both Caitlyn and her support are attacking Vayne, the shield is likely reducing more damage than the dblade is giving to Caitlyn, since it's -8 damage to two people instead of +8 damage to one person.
I think IF the ADC in question doesn't have harassment abilities with AD ratios, in terms of raw combat stats Dshield is just better than Dblade. The question is whether or not the reduction in last hitting and tower pushing etc. is too big of a deal.
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On January 14 2014 05:08 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 05:00 Slusher wrote:On January 14 2014 04:59 wei2coolman wrote:On January 14 2014 04:57 Slusher wrote:
2v1 logic seems sound but I dunno the ins and outs of whats good for that since I have literally never played a (non d/c) 2v1.
Vayne still dependant on her support, the trinity and or nami can still dumpster Sona with Vayne depending on your adc. If you run something like cait sona, you could probably do okay against something like thresh vayne, just due to sheer range advantage. Like I said though. Sona in 2v2 is tightrope walk. You have to try significantly harder than other support to come out even. I'd rather be Karma or mayyyybe Taric, idk I don't like Caitlyn lanes zz. (assuming Annie banned ofc) Karma is really good vs. supports who want brush control and Taric is good counter initiate. If your solely talking about lane. Of course karma is better, but Sona has aoe stun. That is fucking hugeeeee. Sacrificing some lane presence because you can get away with it for teamfight strength is hardly unheard of.
at this point in the scenario I only know the adc is Cait cait is good at seige/poke, Karma is good at seige/poke, to go any deeper into who would be better would take a breakdown of both team comps, suffice to say with the data provided Karma is every bit as good as Sona post lane phase.
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On January 14 2014 05:13 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 05:08 wei2coolman wrote:On January 14 2014 05:00 Slusher wrote:On January 14 2014 04:59 wei2coolman wrote:On January 14 2014 04:57 Slusher wrote:
2v1 logic seems sound but I dunno the ins and outs of whats good for that since I have literally never played a (non d/c) 2v1.
Vayne still dependant on her support, the trinity and or nami can still dumpster Sona with Vayne depending on your adc. If you run something like cait sona, you could probably do okay against something like thresh vayne, just due to sheer range advantage. Like I said though. Sona in 2v2 is tightrope walk. You have to try significantly harder than other support to come out even. I'd rather be Karma or mayyyybe Taric, idk I don't like Caitlyn lanes zz. (assuming Annie banned ofc) Karma is really good vs. supports who want brush control and Taric is good counter initiate. If your solely talking about lane. Of course karma is better, but Sona has aoe stun. That is fucking hugeeeee. Sacrificing some lane presence because you can get away with it for teamfight strength is hardly unheard of. at this point in the scenario I only know the adc is Cait cait is good at seige/poke, Karma is good at seige/poke, to go any deeper into who would be better would take a breakdown of both team comps, suffice to say with the data provided Karma is every bit as good as Sona post lane phase.
Minus the whole aoe counter engage stun that can determine teamfights. If you're going for a deticated poke comp karma prolly better, but for teamfight comp not many ults can beat sona's in game changing impact.
Anyways the point I'm trying to make is, if you have big aoe stun. You'll always atleast be somewhat relevant in LoL
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Karma has terrific anti dive, is it as good as Sona's ult no, but the kit as a whole is on par.
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On January 14 2014 05:18 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 05:13 Slusher wrote:On January 14 2014 05:08 wei2coolman wrote:On January 14 2014 05:00 Slusher wrote:On January 14 2014 04:59 wei2coolman wrote:On January 14 2014 04:57 Slusher wrote:
2v1 logic seems sound but I dunno the ins and outs of whats good for that since I have literally never played a (non d/c) 2v1.
Vayne still dependant on her support, the trinity and or nami can still dumpster Sona with Vayne depending on your adc. If you run something like cait sona, you could probably do okay against something like thresh vayne, just due to sheer range advantage. Like I said though. Sona in 2v2 is tightrope walk. You have to try significantly harder than other support to come out even. I'd rather be Karma or mayyyybe Taric, idk I don't like Caitlyn lanes zz. (assuming Annie banned ofc) Karma is really good vs. supports who want brush control and Taric is good counter initiate. If your solely talking about lane. Of course karma is better, but Sona has aoe stun. That is fucking hugeeeee. Sacrificing some lane presence because you can get away with it for teamfight strength is hardly unheard of. at this point in the scenario I only know the adc is Cait cait is good at seige/poke, Karma is good at seige/poke, to go any deeper into who would be better would take a breakdown of both team comps, suffice to say with the data provided Karma is every bit as good as Sona post lane phase. Minus the whole aoe counter engage stun that can determine teamfights. If you're going for a deticated poke comp karma prolly better, but for teamfight comp not many ults can beat sona's in game changing impact. Anyways the point I'm trying to make is, if you have big aoe stun. You'll always atleast be somewhat relevant in LoL
sejuani?
there are many champs with big aoe cc, which actually means that some of them will always atleast be somewhat irrelevant since there are so many to choose from when picking champs to fit a meta
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there are very few straight up "bad" champions in League, but there are ~75 beneath the threshold of the right bans could make this the best available champion for his/her role, in my personal opinion, any non Madlife vs. Mata ban phase will not include enough supports for Sona to be a strong pick. (on this patch)
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On January 14 2014 05:29 Slusher wrote:
there are very few straight up "bad" champions in League, but there are ~75 beneath the threshold of the right bans could make this the best available champion for his/her role, in my personal opinion, any non Madlife vs. Mata ban phase will not include enough supports for Sona to be a strong pick. (on this patch)
Or the thresh/lulu bans against SKT
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Bengi/Faker Generally protect Mandu from having to take bans, on Frost ofc he'd be getting the same attention as Madlife.
hell Piglet even drew a Vayne ban vs KT B, having good teammates is a pretty good skill to have.
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EPT
