EPT[Patch 3.14] PreSeason 4 General Discussion - Page 51
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35166 Posts
On November 24 2013 00:41 cascades wrote: GP is still a terrible hero. Riot should fix his ult. Bullshit. GP Support is broke as fuck. Face of the mountain + Tiamat/Hydra power farming while being able to double income item through avarice blade. Raise Moral provides a smaller blood boil. Parley + Remove Scurvy provide CC and wastes theirs. Cannon barrage allows for global wide gank assistance. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 23 2013 21:10 Slayer91 wrote: Makes sense to me, in terms of watching the game was pretty dull sometimes. Lots of baiting around baron for ages, lots of foregone conclusions when level 1's went badly or one team snowballed and got like 3 towers and dragon early. Supports buying nothing but boots 1 and sightstone for the entire game. Junglers building ancient golem locket every game. It wasn't that good i have no idea why you guys think its bad for the game if the only thing you need to learn is to buy a gold item if you duo lane and buy a jungle item if you jungle lol From the perspective of someone reading Riot's posts about their designs since beta or S1, it's just funny how these mechanics just plainly go against their own earlier design philosophies and makes them subject to criticisms they levied against other games. Sure, it's not bad for the game. Neither are similar mechanics in other games, but Riot took the liberty to write long design posts about how other games that did those things were bad. It's made all the more ironic by how this also allowed Riot to unintentionally achieve design goals that they failed to in S1 that they have since given up on (such as jungling being optional). | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
by the time relic shield gets nerfed its going to be back to normal | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
but then i guess jungle was buffed a lot too | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 24 2013 04:02 Slayer91 wrote: massively buffing the 2nd member in a duo lane hardly goes towards "not trying" to make the option of 2v1 top vs jungling stronger. but then i guess jungle was buffed a lot too You think that if Riot was actively trying to make jungling optional they wouldn't have mentioned it as one of their core design goals in one of their many posts about the direction they're going with S4 posts? Either they did it by accident, or they pulled a fast one on the League community. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On November 23 2013 20:43 Navi wrote: in general regardless of the direction of the individual changes, i agree with yango. the fact that the game is much less intuitive smells of bad/forced design, which goes against what traditionally has been riot's strengths (simplicity and ease to pick up) Forced design is also just bad from a design standpoint. I like to think about competitive games as a series of hills (or a differentiable 2-manifold) where the high peaks are a combination of characters/units and strategies that are currently strong (to borrow the Sirlin metaphor). Stability of a game can then be likened to a ball rolling in this landscape (or the stability of solutions to equations on our manifold). When are few oppressive "strong points," then the only equilibrium is for our ball to sit at the peak of the hill, extremely unstable and liable to escape. But should there emerge multiple strengths, then we can have areas that contain a bounded field of interactive play. Stable balance comes from the interaction of independent elements. This contrasts to the artificial complexity that Riot has been introducing. Theses gimmicky changes, in the sense of extremely complex and conditional design of elements and how they interact, are like building fences on your landscape (or just having an artificially bounded submanifold). Playstyle and balance becomes fiat, rather than the equilibrium of emergent strengths. What is optimal is because Riot has said so, and what is allowed is hard coded into the game. This isn't to say that we should go back to playing Pong, because the individual elements in that game are nondescript, and the space for interaction is also minimal. The game has no depth and no interest (but is indeed very balanced). But there has been a history of the greatest competitive games involving very straightforward elements, and simply a landscape that allows very complex interactions. Chess and Go have huge depth despite the fact that each piece is completely nondescript because the space for interaction is so large. From within eSports, the most standout games were never designed to be huge, longstanding, competitive dynasties: Brood War, Melee. But despite very few balance patches, these games have had stable competitive scenes that at the same time continuously evolved to improve the longevity of the game. Of course, this is a very biased selection. There have been plenty of games with very little balance that have completely failed, with short lifecycles an no impact. Still, it is worth taking a look at what has made these games survive for so long. And perhaps find a set of necessary conditions (though as failed games in these genres have shown, not sufficient). 1. Very simple elements, with very complex manipulation. Out of sheer luck, these games have elements that have incredible depth without a bunch of conditionals built on them. Wraiths do 3 things: cloak, shoot lasers at the ground, and shoot missiles at the air. Vultures shoot canisters and have an option to lay mines. There's no mechanic for them taking less damage while stealthed, or having the first shot in stealth do bonus damage, for gaining movement after killing something; you can describe the basics of what these do to a 6 year old. But while these elements are simple themselves, the group actions are highly granular. Damage delay, tuning, and acceleration are what makes the Wraith and Vulture highly manipulable. 2. Consistent and explainable gameplay. You hit people and it builds up damage, and the more damage they have on them the further they fly. You get money and build an army and win when you kill all their buildings. Dudes fly based on how heavy they are. 3. Map balance. To say that Brood War didn't have balance patches is a bit misleading, because custom maps offer a huge amount of variation. Different maps favor different races and playstyles, different characters and matchups. 4. An almost unlimited interaction space. If Riot had to balance Brood War, some of the most interesting interactions would be removed on being toxic. Eraser tricks, Dark Swarm, Corsairs, these all very abusive within their sphere of influence, yet because of the sheer amount of complexity, aren't heavily destabilizing. Infinite chain grabs and ledge control are also extremely frustrating to new players but aren't nearly as broken as someone may complain. However, Riot's position is far more difficult. Brood War and Melee are flukes. They are the 4 sigma event. They are by nature impossible to design, because where they ended up wasn't their design goal. And Riot hasn't completely flubbed on these points either. Fizz, Lee Sin, Thresh, and Orianna are just some examples of champions with incredible manipulation potential, without having very bizarre mechanics (Lee's double activations on E and W are borderline). The 3.14 inhibitor change is great, because its unintuitive that destroying a gem in one lane makes the other lanes push harder. The brush changes are interesting; an attempt to balance the map since League doesn't have multiple maps. Yet at the same time the Wright camp makes no sense. Why is the Wright camp there? "Because we wanted to give junglers access to another camp for more gold." Why are there these random high conditional gold items that you can only have one of? "Because we want to directly influence gold distribution in a very restrictive and limited way." Finally, Riot has the responsibility of producing both a game and a sport, a position I'm not envious of at all. The same mechanics that make competitive Brood War interesting, simultaneously make ICCUP impossible. Yet the game that people enjoy and the game that is competitive don't necessarily have to be the same: League has ARAM, and normal blind pick; Brood War has BGH and Fastest. Yet there are still fundamental design paths that can enable both: 1. The game should make sense. Optimal play should be optimal in an unrestricted sense, as the source of the current strongest emergent playstyle, rather than by fiat power. 2. Interaction should be granular rather than binary. Players must be able to do what they want when they want with a high degree of control; loss of control must be something that can be reacted to and responded against (something that Fungal and Force Field ruined in SC2; tripping destroyed in Brawl; CC is in general fairly well done in League). 3. Accept that the highest competitive manifestation of gameplay is completely different from fun and casual play. Pretending that they are the same will only lead to design limitations and arbitrary in game restrictions. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 24 2013 04:05 TheYango wrote: You think that if Riot was actively trying to make jungling optional they wouldn't have mentioned it as one of their core design goals in one of their many posts about the direction they're going with S4 posts? Either they did it by accident, or they pulled a fast one on the League community. technically its neither because jungling isnt optional at all its just everyone exaggerating things about why the changes suck | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
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Kyrie
1594 Posts
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On November 24 2013 03:56 koreasilver wrote: Man, I'm really lost with the patch. Every game I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing. And I'm loving this patch lol. At first I tried to force myself to adapt to the new items and stuff, and I lost. But after that I just play my normal game and get the items like how I get it, and I'm on a big winning streak right now lol. And we all know Relic Shields is getting nerfed on PBE. So the gold generation in the nutshell right now is Ancient Coin: gives 2 gold per dead minion, so you can get like at most 12gold/30sec, or 4 gp10 Spellthief's Edge: gives 2 gp10 and 4 gold for basic attacking the champion in 10sec, so it's like 6 gp10. Relic Shields: charge cd nerfs from 30 to 60sec, so you can get a minion every 30sec, which is 4.1 gp10, and your lane partner get 10 gold/60sec = 1.7 gp10. If both players get relic shields, then the support one will get 4.1+1.7=5.8gp10 while carry get 1.7gp10. I think that although relic shields get nerfed, if both lane partners get it, it's still better item than all the other one. Spellthief gives good gp10 but gives you no sustain and requires you to autoattack their champions, which is risky at times. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On November 24 2013 04:51 TheRabidDeer wrote: Is double targon in lane really that good? Doesnt it take like 15 minutes just to break even? More like 10ish I think. Either way, it allows your team to shove waves hard, due to how good the execute part of it is. Also gives a significant amount of health along with large amounts of sustain. The item itself is pretty cost efficient without the gold generation. The extra you are paying for the gold generation bonus is paid off in like 3 minutes. Oddly enough I think spell thief needs the charge stacks as well, the optimal use of spellthief passive is much harder than targons. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On November 24 2013 03:56 koreasilver wrote: Man, I'm really lost with the patch. Every game I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing. Welcome to low Diamond1 | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On November 24 2013 04:57 canikizu wrote: And I'm loving this patch lol. At first I tried to force myself to adapt to the new items and stuff, and I lost. But after that I just play my normal game and get the items like how I get it, and I'm on a big winning streak right now lol. And we all know Relic Shields is getting nerfed on PBE. So the gold generation in the nutshell right now is Ancient Coin: gives 2 gold per dead minion, so you can get like at most 12gold/30sec, or 4 gp10 Spellthief's Edge: gives 2 gp10 and 4 gold for basic attacking the champion in 10sec, so it's like 6 gp10. Relic Shields: charge cd nerfs from 30 to 60sec, so you can get a minion every 30sec, which is 4.1 gp10, and your lane partner get 10 gold/60sec = 1.7 gp10. If both players get relic shields, then the support one will get 4.1+1.7=5.8gp10 while carry get 1.7gp10. I think that although relic shields get nerfed, if both lane partners get it, it's still better item than all the other one. Spellthief gives good gp10 but gives you no sustain and requires you to autoattack their champions, which is risky at times. One minion every 30 seconds is not 4.1 gp10. I don't know in what world you're getting 4.1*30=123 gold for a minion | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On November 24 2013 04:58 wei2coolman wrote: More like 10ish I think. Either way, it allows your team to shove waves hard, due to how good the execute part of it is. Also gives a significant amount of health along with large amounts of sustain. The item itself is pretty cost efficient without the gold generation. The extra you are paying for the gold generation bonus is paid off in like 3 minutes. I can see the base stats being a pretty good thing to start off, but why not start off with doran's + pot? Or why do people upgrade to targons? The relic starts off with 50 gold per minute for your ally (2 creeps +5gold) so the base pays off after about 9-10 minutes (assuming you are able to use it on siege). Upgrading to targon's gives a little more GPM and stats, but you can instead put that money into a damage item and take the lane, no? | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On November 24 2013 05:03 obesechicken13 wrote: One minion every 30 seconds is not 4.1 gp10. I don't know in what world you're getting 4.1*30=123 gold for a minion I'm talking about the PBE. Relic Shields cd changes from 30 to 60, so you can only use to kill 1 minion(25gold for example) every 60sec. So it's like 4.1 gold per 10. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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