EPT[Patch 3.14] PreSeason 4 General Discussion - Page 53
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Eiii
United States2566 Posts
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/mr_tolkien | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On November 24 2013 06:04 Eiii wrote: it still absolutely blows my mind that 5v5 mode is on SR. So far, every game I've played with friends has ended in my teammates raging because we picked a fun champion instead of a good one. I'm pretty sure that raging/tryhard stuff would happen regardless of what map it was played on. If you play custom howling abyss it's still all nidalee/heimer, you can't escape it by moving to a different map because people still want to win. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On November 24 2013 06:03 obesechicken13 wrote: You didn't show your work. + Show Spoiler + Relic Shields: charge cd nerfs from 30 to 60sec, so you can get a minion every 30sec, which is 4.1 gp10, and your lane partner get 10 gold/60sec = 1.7 gp10. If both players get relic shields, then the support one will get 4.1+1.7=5.8gp10 while carry get 1.7gp10. This is all you said. You didn't show how much a minion is worth. You didn't do any math to get to 4.1gp10 from your minion every 30 seconds. You just gave the end result. An equivalent would be like me saying black cleaver corki does 350 dps which is more than 40% more than an IE PD build. Did I mention who my target was and how much armor they had? Did I mention whether I was adding spells? Did I mention whether I had taken gold value into account? Anyways, I probably need to cool down too. Maybe we can discuss later when we're both more relaxed. I got typos lol. You can get a minion every 60sec, so that's 25gold/6 = 4.1 gp10. your partner get 5 gold per 60 sec, so he got 5gold/6 = 0.8 gp10. so oops, real number is worse than I thought. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On November 24 2013 06:15 canikizu wrote: I got typos lol. You can get a minion every 60sec, so that's 25gold/6 = 4.1 gp10. your partner get 5 gold per 60 sec, so he got 5gold/6 = 0.8 gp10. so oops, real number is worse than I thought. Try it this way. 25gold+5gold/60 = 30gold/60 = 5gold/10. And if you're counting cannon minions, which give 40 gold instead of 25, that's an additional 15 gold/90, or 1.66/10 Real number is 6.66 GP10 for Relics, 7.49 GP10 for Targons. That's after the nerf mind, right now they're giving almost double that. | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
There was a disgusting amount of gold in that lane. Lmao | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On November 24 2013 06:30 Ketara wrote: Try it this way. 25gold+5gold/60 = 30gold/60 = 5gold/10. And if you're counting cannon minions, which give 40 gold instead of 25, that's an additional 15 gold/90, or 1.66/10 Real number is 6.66 GP10 for Relics, 7.49 GP10 for Targons. That's after the nerf mind, right now they're giving double that. I did a very very general math because I didn't expect people nitpick about it. I chose a melee minion gold for 25 gold because that's the most common minion you will use your item on. And 25 gold is a generous number. A minion is only give 20 gold (+0.5 gold/3minute) so to actually get 25 gold/minion, the game has be be like 30 minutes or something. So the real number is actually worse most of the time. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
HERE U GOE: Relic - 10.53 GP10 pre nerf, 6.36 GP10 post nerf Targon - 12.2 GP10 pre nerf, 7.2 GP10 post nerf It's still gonna be pretty strong even after the nerf. IMO double Relic duo lanes will still be strong. Nerf might kill 2-1-2 setups though. | ||
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Eiii
United States2566 Posts
On November 24 2013 06:13 phyvo wrote: I'm pretty sure that raging/tryhard stuff would happen regardless of what map it was played on. If you play custom howling abyss it's still all nidalee/heimer, you can't escape it by moving to a different map because people still want to win. idk, when I played the 5v5 mode in aram when it was leaked no one really gave a shit, everyone just fucked around basically and it was awesome. Maybe that attitude is just the curse of it being a queue now or something. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On November 24 2013 06:43 Ketara wrote: Oh you're right woops, I thought 25 for a melee minion sounded weird. HERE U GOE: Relic - 10.53 GP10 pre nerf, 6.36 GP10 post nerf Targon - 12.2 GP10 pre nerf, 7.2 GP10 post nerf It's still gonna be pretty strong even after the nerf. IMO double Relic duo lanes will still be strong. Nerf might kill 2-1-2 setups though. I'm not really follow the number. Since the cannon spams in every 3 waves, that means in every 2 minutes, we have 2 charges and can use on 1 minion and 1 cannon, so 1st minute: 25/6 = 4.2 gp10 2nd minute: 45/6 = 7.5 gp10 Average every 2 minute = 5.85 gp10 And I agree with you. That's why I said earlier that if the support get items for himself, then the number might be justified, but if the duo lane still both get it, Relics shield is still superior than other 2 items. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
A cannon minion spawns every 3rd wave. So you use your 2 charges on the first wave, have built one by the 3rd wave and get the cannon, then get another charge on the 5th wave, but you skip it to grab the 6th wave cannon since you're still building charges, giving you a charge on the 7th wave and then another on the 9th wave for the 3rd cannon. You then get a charge at the 11th wave and miss the 4th cannon. So assuming you never went back to base, you can grab every cannon minion with perfect efficiency up until the 8 minute mark. You went back to base before then and built some charge time while walking, so it's pretty moot. You're getting every cannon minion. Edit: Also, your math is every 2 minutes when cannon minions spawn every 90 seconds. Those numbers would only be accurate if cannon minions were every 4th wave. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
on November 24 2013 06:30 Ketara wrote: Try it this way. 25gold+5gold/60 = 30gold/60 = 5gold/10. And if you're counting cannon minions, which give 40 gold instead of 25, that's an additional 15 gold/90, or 1.66/10 Real number is 6.66 GP10 for Relics, 7.49 GP10 for Targons. That's after the nerf mind, right now they're giving double that. I think it's better to use (25+25+45)/3 as the average gold per minute if you're going to only kill melee minions and cannons. The value of 25,25,45 is valid from 15 to 18 minutes (I think this is measured from when minions start spawning but could be wrong). So for more than 15 minutes of game time you'll have less than the calculated gold. Even being this generous, (25+25+45)/3=31.667 gold per minion just from the kill. 31.667+5(relic shield's bonus)=36.667. 36.667/60=.61112 gps or 6.1112 gp10 This is definitely generous. I would like to see a spreadsheet for the numbers that took into account gold growth but if we were to go through that much effort we might as well do real game tests. | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On November 24 2013 07:08 obesechicken13 wrote: I think it's better to use (25+25+45)/3 as the average gold per minute if you're going to only kill melee minions and cannons. The value of 25,25,45 is valid from 15 to 18 minutes (I think this is measured from when minions start spawning but could be wrong). So for more than 15 minutes of game time you'll have less than the calculated gold. Even being this generous, (25+25+45)/3=31.667 gold per minion just from the kill. 31.667+5(relic shield's bonus)=36.667. 36.667/60=.61112 gps or 6.1112 gp10 This is definitely generous. I would like to see a spreadsheet for the numbers that took into account gold growth but if we were to go through that much effort we might as well do real game tests. 25+25+45 is accurate because your ally gets 5 bonus gold (so it's 20+20+40 for you and 5+5+5 for your ally) | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
Lucian vs Rengar (OH GOD BUSHES LV 1 but we won after 40 minutes when we started 1-4 pushing with Chrispy on tank Lucian splitting top while the rest of us played crossfire in mid) Garen vs Soraka (Hilariously fun but I was playing with scrubs that kept dying to starcall in lane) Fiddle vs Cait (They tried to push mid as a group and that ended very badly for them when 5 crows started bouncing) Fiddle vs Jayce (Thank god nobody wards anymore) Lux vs Darius (PEW PEW LASERS) Singed vs Nunu (Rod Rylais Liandry's Visage Swifties Mikael's WHICH I DIDN'T KNOW YOU COULD USE ON YOURSELF WTF IT'S SO OP ON SINGED) | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12083 Posts
On November 24 2013 07:14 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Singed vs Nunu (Rod Rylais Liandry's Visage Swifties Mikael's WHICH I DIDN'T KNOW YOU COULD USE ON YOURSELF WTF IT'S SO OP ON SINGED) Yeah, if only it could cleanse suppress tho. | ||
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beefhamburger
United States3962 Posts
On November 24 2013 07:14 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Singed vs Nunu (Rod Rylais Liandry's Visage Swifties Mikael's WHICH I DIDN'T KNOW YOU COULD USE ON YOURSELF WTF IT'S SO OP ON SINGED) Yeh, good for slows but sucks for stuns which is a factor why it wasn't very popular in S3. I believe theres like a 0.2s window from cast to effect which could allow you to self-break stuns but it's pretty difficult to do reliably. That is, if they haven't changed the mechanics of Mikael's with the update. | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12083 Posts
What limited my choice of buying the item was Zed and other non-Mikael-cleansable effects out there (but QSS does), that were popular in S3. And support gold I guess. | ||
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Inschato
Canada1349 Posts
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On November 24 2013 07:07 Ketara wrote: You build a charge every 60 seconds, but you start the game with 2 charges. A cannon minion spawns every 3rd wave. So you use your 2 charges on the first wave, have built one by the 3rd wave and get the cannon, then get another charge on the 5th wave, but you skip it to grab the 6th wave cannon since you're still building charges, giving you a charge on the 7th wave and then another on the 9th wave for the 3rd cannon. You then get a charge at the 11th wave and miss the 4th cannon. So assuming you never went back to base, you can grab every cannon minion with perfect efficiency up until the 8 minute mark. You went back to base before then and built some charge time while walking, so it's pretty moot. You're getting every cannon minion. Edit: Also, your math is every 2 minutes when cannon minions spawn every 90 seconds. Those numbers would only be accurate if cannon minions were every 4th wave. Yeah I noticed it after I posted lol. But I think in average every 2minutes, you can still only use charge on 1 cannon and 1 minion, there're cases you can use on 2 cannons, but the cycles are 4,5 minutes each. So it's like you get additional 15 gold in 1 4,5-minute cycle or something. You start the game with 2 charges, but you cannot use your charge until like 2 minutes anyway :p On November 24 2013 07:08 obesechicken13 wrote: I think it's better to use (25+25+45)/3 as the average gold per minute if you're going to only kill melee minions and cannons. The value of 25,25,45 is valid from 15 to 18 minutes (I think this is measured from when minions start spawning but could be wrong). So for more than 15 minutes of game time you'll have less than the calculated gold. Even being this generous, (25+25+45)/3=31.667 gold per minion just from the kill. 31.667+5(relic shield's bonus)=36.667. 36.667/60=.61112 gps or 6.1112 gp10 This is definitely generous. I would like to see a spreadsheet for the numbers that took into account gold growth but if we were to go through that much effort we might as well do real game tests. Unless I got your idea wrong, I don't think you can do 25+25+45, since you gain a charge every 2 waves, not 1 wave. Moreover, the minion gold bounty increases 0.5 every 3 minutes, so to get from 20 gold to 25 gold, it's gonna be like 30 minutes or something. | ||
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