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United States47024 Posts
I mean it's not just that. Assist streaks are very unintuitive. Straightforward bounty for kills/assists is easy to understand. A significant bonus that is calculated based on how many more assists you have than kills? For someone who's never played the game before, that sounds really arbitrary. Hell, even experienced TLers had to have the concept explained a second time to really understand how they work.
It just seems weird to me that a game that basically made its mark on the genre by being the most straightforward, easiest to pick up, and easiest to play comfortably suddenly took such a significant turn away from its defining aspect by massively increasing complexity and opacity by introducing mechanics like these that are either unintuitive or hard to justify to someone who does't understand the game on a reasonable level. Many of the criticisms that League's designers levied against other games in the genre (and in other genres even) can honestly probably be applied to League in its current state in S4.
EDIT: Think about even the very concept of the gold items. Even ignoring Relic/Targon's being massively overtuned at the start--the design paradigm going into S4 for supports and junglers is "if you want to keep up as a support or jungler, you HAVE to buy these items". From the standpoint of a newer player, this is not transparent at all. There's no clear indication of this, but the gameplay of a support or jungler that does't get these items is SO different because of how Riot has designed support/jungle income around them in S4.
Effectively, buying a gold item on a support/jungler in S4 is designed as "you do it because it's just better and we designed the game that way". A mechanic that has no real intuitive reasoning and solely exists because the game designer felt like designing the game that way would have been antithetical to Riot's design paradigms--a mechanic like that would have been an outrage to Riot a couple years ago
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I have as much map vision as when Nocturne uses his ult. I really dislike the ward limit + no more oracles.
The all for one mode is pretty fun though. I played a few games and I just want to mention that 5 Xin Zhao v. 5 Nidalee is the most one sided affair ever. o:
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On November 23 2013 19:47 TheYango wrote:
I mean it's not just that. Assist streaks are very unintuitive. Straightforward bounty for kills/assists is easy to understand. A significant bonus that is calculated based on how many more assists you have than kills? For someone who's never played the game before, that sounds really arbitrary. Hell, even experienced TLers had to have the concept explained a second time to really understand how they work.
It just seems weird to me that a game that basically made its mark on the genre by being the most straightforward, easy to pick up, easy to play comfortably suddenly took such a significant turn away from its defining aspect by massively increasing complexity and opacity by introducing mechanics like these that are either unintuitive or hard to justify to someone who does't understand the game on a reasonable level. Many of the criticisms that League's designers levied against other games in the genre can honestly probably be applied to League in its current state in S4.
EDIT: Think about even the very concept of the gold items. Even ignoring Relic/Targon's being massively overtuned at the start--the design paradigm going into S4 for supports and junglers is "if you want to keep up as a support or jungler, you HAVE to buy these items". From the standpoint of a newer player, this is not transparent at all. There's no clear indication of this, but the gameplay of a support or jungler that does't get these items is SO different because of how Riot has designed support/jungle income around them in S4.
Effectively, buying a gold item on a support/jungler in S4 is designed as "you do it because it's just better and we designed the game that way". A mechanic that has no real intuitive reasoning and solely exists because the game designer felt like designing the game that way would have been antithetical to Riot's design paradigms--a mechanic like that would have been an outrage to Riot a couple years ago
every once in a while these days I get an itch to reinstall LoL and play a bit but when I see these changes it just straight up make me sick and just turns me off:/
I don't understand what they get from changing the game radically every other month much less introducing these complicated mechanics,it really alienates people like me that want to be in touch but just don't have the time to scour through every change and play constantly.
idk,just feels like riot is constantly shuffling things to cover up the huge flaws that would come out if they left the game alone for a while
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On November 23 2013 20:06 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 19:47 TheYango wrote:
I mean it's not just that. Assist streaks are very unintuitive. Straightforward bounty for kills/assists is easy to understand. A significant bonus that is calculated based on how many more assists you have than kills? For someone who's never played the game before, that sounds really arbitrary. Hell, even experienced TLers had to have the concept explained a second time to really understand how they work.
It just seems weird to me that a game that basically made its mark on the genre by being the most straightforward, easy to pick up, easy to play comfortably suddenly took such a significant turn away from its defining aspect by massively increasing complexity and opacity by introducing mechanics like these that are either unintuitive or hard to justify to someone who does't understand the game on a reasonable level. Many of the criticisms that League's designers levied against other games in the genre can honestly probably be applied to League in its current state in S4.
EDIT: Think about even the very concept of the gold items. Even ignoring Relic/Targon's being massively overtuned at the start--the design paradigm going into S4 for supports and junglers is "if you want to keep up as a support or jungler, you HAVE to buy these items". From the standpoint of a newer player, this is not transparent at all. There's no clear indication of this, but the gameplay of a support or jungler that does't get these items is SO different because of how Riot has designed support/jungle income around them in S4.
Effectively, buying a gold item on a support/jungler in S4 is designed as "you do it because it's just better and we designed the game that way". A mechanic that has no real intuitive reasoning and solely exists because the game designer felt like designing the game that way would have been antithetical to Riot's design paradigms--a mechanic like that would have been an outrage to Riot a couple years ago every once in a while these days I get an itch to reinstall LoL and play a bit but when I see these changes it just straight up make me sick and just turns me off:/ I don't understand what they get from changing the game radically every other month much less introducing these complicated mechanics,it really alienates people like me that want to be in touch but just don't have the time to scour through every change and play constantly. idk,just feels like riot is constantly shuffling things to cover up the huge flaws that would come out if they left the game alone for a while
If by every other month you mean once a year, then sure.
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I played a year ago and since than there were 3-4 radical changes to the jungle.Unless people I'm talking to are bullshitting me lol.
Also they still on that on that crazy champ release pace no?
w/e,maybe I'm just nostalgic and bitter
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United States47024 Posts
On November 23 2013 20:18 TheKefka wrote:
I played a year ago and since than there were 3-4 radical changes to the jungle.Unless people I'm talking to are bullshitting me lol.
Also they still on that on that crazy champ release pace no?
No, Riot's champ release schedule has actually slowed down to quite a reasonable pace now.
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United States37500 Posts
On November 23 2013 20:18 TheKefka wrote:
I played a year ago and since than there were 3-4 radical changes to the jungle.Unless people I'm talking to are bullshitting me lol.
Also they still on that on that crazy champ release pace no?
You need either better friends or better sources. "Radical changes" have only occurred in between seasons and for the most part, I think people are pretty content in the direction the game has been moving from season to season. That's not to say Riot has gotten everything right on the first attempt (see: Targan's) but it's progressing.
Champion release cycle has been drastically reduced.
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On November 23 2013 20:18 TheKefka wrote:
I played a year ago and since than there were 3-4 radical changes to the jungle.Unless people I'm talking to are bullshitting me lol.
Also they still on that on that crazy champ release pace no?
w/e,maybe I'm just nostalgic and bitter
Those radical jungle changes were making smaller camps spawn at 2:05 instead of 1:40 and some experience being shuffled around to compensate.
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Why is the first Yango post on this page golden? o_O
Is that just on my end or wtf even is that?
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United States37500 Posts
On November 23 2013 20:29 BlackPaladin wrote:
Why is the first Yango post on this page golden? o_O
Is that just on my end or wtf even is that?
Someone gifted him TL+ for the post.
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On November 23 2013 20:29 BlackPaladin wrote:
Why is the first Yango post on this page golden? o_O
Is that just on my end or wtf even is that?
Someone gifted him TL+ for the post. You can see it at the bottom right of the post.
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On November 23 2013 19:18 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 18:51 JonGalt wrote:
While I don't like how riot has artificially increased the gold, I do like the direction more gold is taking the game.
if they can fix the numbers for relic, assist streaks, and bonus xp in the jungle - we might get a game where teams can have a dedicated jungle or not! I think that could be pretty cool. Well there are a lot of ways they could have done this with more transparent mechanics than "jungle camps give you 50% bonus XP for every level lower than them you are". It's really not intuitive for players to have to click on a jungle camp to check its level to know what they're getting from it. I think a lot of the end results for these changes look like they'll be ok, the question is whether Riot likes the direction they take the game since it's not really the same as what they seemed to intend to do. And if they do want to go that route,some of these mechanics are still sort of cumbersome and roundabout.
but thats hardly the only overly convoluted mechanic. while this patch may shake things up again and we see a new meta, that meta will be even more ingrained than the old one. the more complex the mechanics the more constricted teams will be to play in the exact way riot wants. and i think thats just really bad for the game long term.
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On November 23 2013 20:35 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 19:18 TheYango wrote:On November 23 2013 18:51 JonGalt wrote:
While I don't like how riot has artificially increased the gold, I do like the direction more gold is taking the game.
if they can fix the numbers for relic, assist streaks, and bonus xp in the jungle - we might get a game where teams can have a dedicated jungle or not! I think that could be pretty cool. Well there are a lot of ways they could have done this with more transparent mechanics than "jungle camps give you 50% bonus XP for every level lower than them you are". It's really not intuitive for players to have to click on a jungle camp to check its level to know what they're getting from it. I think a lot of the end results for these changes look like they'll be ok, the question is whether Riot likes the direction they take the game since it's not really the same as what they seemed to intend to do. And if they do want to go that route,some of these mechanics are still sort of cumbersome and roundabout. but thats hardly the only overly convoluted mechanic. while this patch may shake things up again and we see a new meta, that meta will be even more ingrained than the old one. the more complex the mechanics the more constricted teams will be to play in the exact way riot wants. and i think thats just really bad for the game long term.
I dont think it is an intuitive mechanic. Why does it maike sense that a lower level champ gets more XP from the same monster when it already requires more XP for each level?
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in general regardless of the direction of the individual changes, i agree with yango. the fact that the game is much less intuitive smells of bad/forced design, which goes against what traditionally has been riot's strengths (simplicity and ease to pick up)
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I think all the changes thus far point to significantly longer games like at the end of s2. Games will either be 20min snowballs or hour stalemates.
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I really want one of these days for Riot to meet with many of the folks in TL for 10-20 min, just to bring them to earth for a little while to refocus their efforts in this game.
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On November 23 2013 11:49 iCanada wrote:
Okay...
So, I dont understand how to win games anymore. It honestly makes no sense to me. Soloqueue right now is like 100% stall till late game and gamble on the fact that someone on the other team hard-derps instead of someone on your team.
Doesn't matter who you play, how you play, where you play, Gold from Relics keeps things so even.
The game feels so bleh right now. Its like a bunch of stuff happens for thirty minutes, none of it matters, and then one team just wins.
I almost feel like in the 20 games I've played the team that was behind at the ten minute mark has won like 90% of the time because the "ahead" team just hard throws because they dont have vision and the Relics just make vision much much muuuch more important than almost any gold gap you could possibly have.
You are just whining. Your argument makes absolutely no sense. Everybody can get relics, relics benefit whoever can make sure to farm to keep their stacks down, if anything it benefits the team who is ahead slightly more.
Tower snowballing seems reduced, and supports and junglers fall behind less harshly, this leads to less snowballing to the extent where the game is almost unwinnable which let to a lot of 20 minutes surrenders that I feel happen less and I think its pretty much a good thing, but that doesn't change snowballing, it just makes the guy behind less behind in terms of gold, the guys ahead still get tons of gold especially with the assist streak thing.
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Can anyone tell me why riot feels like overhauling everything each season? I mean, S3 seemed to be fine as far as im concerned. They could have changed the inhibs/vision to make the game less snowbally, and it would have been perfect. But now it's a complete confusing mess, and I have no desire to play the game anymore. Also, Is it just me that thinks that having a defined support role is ok? Someone that just wards and uses their abilities to help allies? Did people really hate that that much? and the jungle was completely fine. Completely retarded move by riot to change it. Both ganking junglers AND farming junglers could work (look at meteos).
I'm seriously disappointed that riot feels the need to change everything instead of just tweaking some things and letting players figure out the meta by themselves. Think about games like SC2 or Counter Strike, they've been practically the same game for YEARS. Sure, there's small balance changes here or there (like what happened in season 3 for league) but there's not any massive changes like: constantly new or changed items, new champs, rebalanced champs, changes for the jungle/towers/baron/dragon, etc. etc. Basically everything about the game changes every season, along with changes during each season themself. I just want a stable fucking game ffs, why is that so hard for riot? I guess it's because i'm more interested in having the game more as an esport, like, that's the game I want to play. I want to be competitive, and when things change this often it makes it less so imo.
On a side note watching IEM/OGN still in S3 makes me sad 
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Makes sense to me, in terms of watching the game was pretty dull sometimes. Lots of baiting around baron for ages, lots of foregone conclusions when level 1's went badly or one team snowballed and got like 3 towers and dragon early. Supports buying nothing but boots 1 and sightstone for the entire game. Junglers building ancient golem locket every game. It wasn't that good i have no idea why you guys think its bad for the game if the only thing you need to learn is to buy a gold item if you duo lane and buy a jungle item if you jungle lol
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Can anyone tell me why riot feels like overhauling everything each season?
If you want your game to last 20+ years you really need it to keep changing to maintain interest. There's no such thing as a perfect iteration of LoL because perfect gets boring after a year or 2. Look at what wizards of the coast do with their games.
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EPT
