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On December 02 2013 02:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 02:14 turdburgler wrote:
i cant remember off the top of my head. it makes perfect sense. if you gain 10 armor a 100 dmg hit becomes 90 dmg. if you already have 50% reduction (whatever amount of armor that is) and so you would normally take 50 damage from that same 100 base damage hit, 10 more armor takes that hit to 45. so that 10 armor is still making you take 10% less damage, the hit went from 50 to 45, 10% less of 50 is 45.
i thought this was common knowledge. 10 armor is an EHP increase equal to 10% of your base HP, which is a 9.1% damage reduction. 100 armor is an EHP increase equal to 100% of your base HP, which is a 50% damage reduction. 110 armor is an EHP increase equal to 110% of your base HP which is a 52.4% damage reduction. Armor does not stack multiplicatively with itself like you seem to imply. Far from being "common knowledge" your understanding of the mechanics are outright incorrect. EDIT: Typo
my whole life is a lie
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its not a dispute its just the same mistake people have been making since as long as I remember this armour formula being used (WoW days)
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the important lesson to take away from all this is that runes are important 
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Finland33997 Posts
On December 02 2013 02:14 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 02:11 Shikyo wrote:On December 02 2013 02:07 turdburgler wrote:On December 02 2013 02:02 Gahlo wrote:On December 02 2013 00:44 turdburgler wrote:On December 02 2013 00:23 Gahlo wrote:On December 02 2013 00:12 turdburgler wrote:
and 1500 hp on supports is like minute 8-10 these days. By 8-10 minutes, your runes don't matter all that much. wtf game are you playing ;D i think you are all crazy, 10 armor is always 10% dmg reduction no matter what stage of the game you are at. runes provide like 1000g of stats and that never changes. 10 armor is always 10% EHP increase vs physical, not 10% damage reduction. well i thought that went without saying but yes. That makes no sense. How much ehp increase is 100 armor always, then? i cant remember off the top of my head. it makes perfect sense. if you gain 10 armor a 100 dmg hit becomes 90 dmg. if you already have 50% reduction (whatever amount of armor that is) and so you would normally take 50 damage from that same 100 base damage hit, 10 more armor takes that hit to 45. so that 10 armor is still making you take 10% less damage, the hit went from 50 to 45, 10% less of 50 is 45. i thought this was common knowledge. Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 02:11 Shikyo wrote:On December 02 2013 02:07 turdburgler wrote:On December 02 2013 02:02 Gahlo wrote:On December 02 2013 00:44 turdburgler wrote:On December 02 2013 00:23 Gahlo wrote:On December 02 2013 00:12 turdburgler wrote:
and 1500 hp on supports is like minute 8-10 these days. By 8-10 minutes, your runes don't matter all that much. wtf game are you playing ;D i think you are all crazy, 10 armor is always 10% dmg reduction no matter what stage of the game you are at. runes provide like 1000g of stats and that never changes. 10 armor is always 10% EHP increase vs physical, not 10% damage reduction. well i thought that went without saying but yes. That makes no sense. How much ehp increase is 100 armor always, then? If you have 500 armor and it becomes 510, your physical damage reduction goes from 83.33333~% to 83.606557377~% which is a 3.28% increase. well the formula normally used is that 1 armor is 1% reduction, i used 10 because i was just giving a quick example, 10 armor being 10% reduction is an approximation. so yes you can find examples where the numbers dont line up perfectly. that doesnt change what im saying though. 'armor doesnt have diminishing returns' is a fact of the game, which means that the value of armor runes doesnt change as you gain more armor in the game from items. which gets back to the original point that 'runes lose value during the game' isnt true with some runes. since armor doesnt have diminishing returns, armor runes dont get worse.
the formula's armor / armor + 100 = reduction
diminishing returns is what I'd have said before the match I just played but seems like yango was too fast
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United States47024 Posts
It's not really diminishing returns, it's just how multiplicative scaling works. Buying more of one stat makes buying the others better. It's pretty obvious when you express armor as being an EHP increase based on your base HP, because then it's clear that buying more HP makes buying armor better and buying more armor makes HP better.
Damage reduction % is a pretty shitty way to express the benefit of armor. EHP is the stat that actually brings together all your defensive stats together, and if you're doing damage calculations you don't want damage reduction %, you want % damage taken (you care about how much damage you actually took, not how much you didn't take), and both EHP increase and damage reduction % are one arithmetic step from giving you % EHP increase (% damage taken = 1/% EHP increase = 1 - damage reduction %).
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On December 02 2013 02:55 TheYango wrote:
It's not really diminishing returns, it's just how multiplicative scaling works. Buying more of one stat makes buying the others better. It's pretty obvious when you express armor as being an EHP increase based on your base HP, because then it's clear that buying more HP makes buying armor better and buying more armor makes HP better.
Fuck dat, Health #1 stat. Don't need to buy MR or Armor.
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If Nautilus' shield cooldown wasn't that shitty, I'd really have trouble deciding when it's better to buy resistances and when it's better to buy HP to make it last (100-300 HP shield with a 10% bonus HP ratio).
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On December 02 2013 03:07 Alaric wrote:
If Nautilus' shield cooldown wasn't that shitty, I'd really have trouble deciding when it's better to buy resistances and when it's better to buy HP to make it last (100-300 HP shield with a 10% bonus HP ratio).
Does it really matter? The go to armor and MR items, (randuins/sunfire, and spirit visage/bv) give good combo of health and resistances.
Not like defensive itemization takes that much thought in this meta.
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United States47024 Posts
10% bonus HP ratio is really just 10% more HP for every point of HP you buy. The CD is so long that the first cast of the shield is predominantly what matters, so you should just treat it as every point of 10 points of HP you buy giving you an additional 1 point as shield.
Incidentally this doesn't significantly affect the optimum HP/resistance split anyway. Any multiplier on your HP or resistances is applied commutatively to your EHP as a whole, and while this applies to bonus HP and not your total HP, the base value of the shield cancels that out. The gist of it is that even if the shield were better, it wouldn't affect your HP/resistance split.
Low CD heals/shields are another matter that heavily favor resist stacking in the long run (discussed in the Udyr/WW threads, IIRC), but Nautilus' Shield isn't.
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I miss being nigh unkillable on WW with just 2500 health Lanewick in s2 was fun
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Finland33997 Posts
On December 02 2013 02:55 TheYango wrote:
It's not really diminishing returns, it's just how multiplicative scaling works. Buying more of one stat makes buying the others better. It's pretty obvious when you express armor as being an EHP increase based on your base HP, because then it's clear that buying more HP makes buying armor better and buying more armor makes HP better.
Damage reduction % is a pretty shitty way to express the benefit of armor. EHP is the stat that actually brings together all your defensive stats together, and if you're doing damage calculations you don't want damage reduction %, you want % damage taken (you care about how much damage you actually took, not how much you didn't take), and both EHP increase and damage reduction % are one arithmetic step from giving you % EHP increase (% damage taken = 1/% EHP increase = 1 - damage reduction %).
That's still diminishing returns.
AD for example isn't diminishing returns.
Like in DotA if you buy 2 vanguards, the second one is much less efficient because of this and it's the same system.
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United States47024 Posts
AD and armor are the same.
EHP = (1+Armor) * HP
Damage = AD * (1+Attack Speed)
EDIT: I guess it's better to compare armor to attack speed. Whatever.
On December 02 2013 03:26 Shikyo wrote:
Like in DotA if you buy 2 vanguards, the second one is much less efficient because of this and it's the same system.
That's not related at all rofl.
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I said that mainly because the long-ass cd on his shield (and the fact that despite the rape nerf it's still his main source of damage) makes me favour items granting me CDR anyway. FH would be really good but it's easy to go over the cap with 20% items. Last game I went golem-mobos-locket-SV(completed by sightstone and gauntlet because I wanted the armour+mana), but maybe combining FH and Banshee would work better for resists+armour+HP, since the passives reduce both the spells burst and autoattack dps that may threaten it. The build-up is pretty meh though, as you basically have to chose between HP and CDR at first.
Locket on the other hand works well (if the enemy comp calls for it) since you can use W then locket and they'll have to destroy the ~200 HP shield before they start eating away at your dps source.
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Man, why do people still pick Janna.
-.-
I see no reason to not just spam games as like Ori bot instead.
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I got 100. Not bad, I guess
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I got 83, its sad that some I forgot were some of my most played. If you look at the stats, Skarner is the most forgotten.. poor Skarner no one remembers him.
Edit: lol at that distribution of # correct too, clearly a lot of cheaters.
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Got 107. Vi screwed me up because I was originaly typing Viktor but she got validated and I proceeded to type 10 names before realising it wasn't taking anything in as there was that "tor" sticking up at the beginning.
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I could easily name all 116 if they had their portraits attached. Without, I only managed 99 with help from my brother. My memory tends to categorize things by type, so as soon as I remembered shen as a top laner, I remembered kennen, akali and lee sin as energy users.
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United States7639 Posts
eh, I suck... 86
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EPT
