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On October 06 2013 01:22 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 01:20 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:14 Numy wrote:On October 06 2013 01:07 Ketara wrote:
I would be perfectly fine with Zeds damage and roaming if his farming weren't so safe and easy. Yea exactly my idea. The Q is the real issue i feel. They hit his W before so it isn't as bad, maybe remove the cooldown reduction completely. On October 06 2013 01:14 Shikyo wrote:
I think Zed using energy is fine. If he used mana, he would have unlimited stayability. Currently he has real energy issues in battle.
IMO something like doubling W energy cost would already go a long way towards balancing him. Maybe increase Q and E energy cost by 10 as well and he's a lot more difficult to make function. He is already the only energy user that actually has energy issues. Doubling W cost what the fuck Maybe they need to just nerf dmg numbers. He's pretty silly of a champ right now. The issue is if you nerf his damage then he becomes useless. It's better to make his damage riskier instead of making it less. Look at Fizz, he's in a similar boat but he can't farm as easily so his silly damage/mobility isn't as bad as Zeds.
It would have to call for a redesign with one of his abilities then imo.
I'm not saying they should neuter him in terms of damage, but they really do need to tone it down a little.
Or perhaps shift his ult damage onto some of his abilities, make his ability to pop squishies a little bit less ridiculous, but his ability to poke/harass before teamfight start, a bit stronger? I dunno, just tossing out ideas.
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On October 06 2013 01:22 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 01:20 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:14 Numy wrote:On October 06 2013 01:07 Ketara wrote:
I would be perfectly fine with Zeds damage and roaming if his farming weren't so safe and easy. Yea exactly my idea. The Q is the real issue i feel. They hit his W before so it isn't as bad, maybe remove the cooldown reduction completely. On October 06 2013 01:14 Shikyo wrote:
I think Zed using energy is fine. If he used mana, he would have unlimited stayability. Currently he has real energy issues in battle.
IMO something like doubling W energy cost would already go a long way towards balancing him. Maybe increase Q and E energy cost by 10 as well and he's a lot more difficult to make function. He is already the only energy user that actually has energy issues. Doubling W cost what the fuck Maybe they need to just nerf dmg numbers. He's pretty silly of a champ right now. The issue is if you nerf his damage then he becomes useless. It's better to make his damage riskier instead of making it less. Look at Fizz, he's in a similar boat but he can't farm as easily so his silly damage/mobility isn't as bad as Zeds.
Possibly remove damage from his abilities but increase the damage boost on his ult? That would make his farming harder and lower his harass while keeping his insta-kill burst potential.
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On October 06 2013 01:26 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 01:22 Numy wrote:On October 06 2013 01:20 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:14 Numy wrote:On October 06 2013 01:07 Ketara wrote:
I would be perfectly fine with Zeds damage and roaming if his farming weren't so safe and easy. Yea exactly my idea. The Q is the real issue i feel. They hit his W before so it isn't as bad, maybe remove the cooldown reduction completely. On October 06 2013 01:14 Shikyo wrote:
I think Zed using energy is fine. If he used mana, he would have unlimited stayability. Currently he has real energy issues in battle.
IMO something like doubling W energy cost would already go a long way towards balancing him. Maybe increase Q and E energy cost by 10 as well and he's a lot more difficult to make function. He is already the only energy user that actually has energy issues. Doubling W cost what the fuck Maybe they need to just nerf dmg numbers. He's pretty silly of a champ right now. The issue is if you nerf his damage then he becomes useless. It's better to make his damage riskier instead of making it less. Look at Fizz, he's in a similar boat but he can't farm as easily so his silly damage/mobility isn't as bad as Zeds. It would have to call for a redesign with one of his abilities then imo. I'm not saying they should neuter him in terms of damage, but they really do need to tone it down a little. Or perhaps shift his ult damage onto some of his abilities, make his ability to pop squishies a little bit less ridiculous, but his ability to poke/harass before teamfight start, a bit stronger? I dunno, just tossing out ideas.
Lots of people can poke/harass before teamfights. Really feel his Q just needs a redesign/neuting. It's what lets him poke, harass, farm all bypassing the weakness of being a melee hero. If he had to use his W/E more to farm when behind it would make him a lot more susceptible to getting ganked and it's on a longer cooldown.
On October 06 2013 01:28 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 01:22 Numy wrote:On October 06 2013 01:20 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:14 Numy wrote:On October 06 2013 01:07 Ketara wrote:
I would be perfectly fine with Zeds damage and roaming if his farming weren't so safe and easy. Yea exactly my idea. The Q is the real issue i feel. They hit his W before so it isn't as bad, maybe remove the cooldown reduction completely. On October 06 2013 01:14 Shikyo wrote:
I think Zed using energy is fine. If he used mana, he would have unlimited stayability. Currently he has real energy issues in battle.
IMO something like doubling W energy cost would already go a long way towards balancing him. Maybe increase Q and E energy cost by 10 as well and he's a lot more difficult to make function. He is already the only energy user that actually has energy issues. Doubling W cost what the fuck Maybe they need to just nerf dmg numbers. He's pretty silly of a champ right now. The issue is if you nerf his damage then he becomes useless. It's better to make his damage riskier instead of making it less. Look at Fizz, he's in a similar boat but he can't farm as easily so his silly damage/mobility isn't as bad as Zeds. Possibly remove damage from his abilities but increase the damage boost on his ult? That would make his farming harder and lower his harass while keeping his insta-kill burst potential.
Pretty cool idea actually. Maybe even boost the damage after ulti so he combos better with other people than just his own?
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On October 06 2013 01:28 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 01:22 Numy wrote:On October 06 2013 01:20 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:14 Numy wrote:On October 06 2013 01:07 Ketara wrote:
I would be perfectly fine with Zeds damage and roaming if his farming weren't so safe and easy. Yea exactly my idea. The Q is the real issue i feel. They hit his W before so it isn't as bad, maybe remove the cooldown reduction completely. On October 06 2013 01:14 Shikyo wrote:
I think Zed using energy is fine. If he used mana, he would have unlimited stayability. Currently he has real energy issues in battle.
IMO something like doubling W energy cost would already go a long way towards balancing him. Maybe increase Q and E energy cost by 10 as well and he's a lot more difficult to make function. He is already the only energy user that actually has energy issues. Doubling W cost what the fuck Maybe they need to just nerf dmg numbers. He's pretty silly of a champ right now. The issue is if you nerf his damage then he becomes useless. It's better to make his damage riskier instead of making it less. Look at Fizz, he's in a similar boat but he can't farm as easily so his silly damage/mobility isn't as bad as Zeds. Possibly remove damage from his abilities but increase the damage boost on his ult? That would make his farming harder and lower his harass while keeping his insta-kill burst potential.
Funny, we came up with exact opposite ideas. The main problem with making his ulti do even more damage, is right now his 100-0 potential is not always guaranteed, stuff like Riven shield, and barrier are soft counters to his all-ins. Boost his ulti damage, and nothing is there to stop him in a 1v1.
On October 06 2013 01:29 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 01:26 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:22 Numy wrote:On October 06 2013 01:20 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:14 Numy wrote:On October 06 2013 01:07 Ketara wrote:
I would be perfectly fine with Zeds damage and roaming if his farming weren't so safe and easy. Yea exactly my idea. The Q is the real issue i feel. They hit his W before so it isn't as bad, maybe remove the cooldown reduction completely. On October 06 2013 01:14 Shikyo wrote:
I think Zed using energy is fine. If he used mana, he would have unlimited stayability. Currently he has real energy issues in battle.
IMO something like doubling W energy cost would already go a long way towards balancing him. Maybe increase Q and E energy cost by 10 as well and he's a lot more difficult to make function. He is already the only energy user that actually has energy issues. Doubling W cost what the fuck Maybe they need to just nerf dmg numbers. He's pretty silly of a champ right now. The issue is if you nerf his damage then he becomes useless. It's better to make his damage riskier instead of making it less. Look at Fizz, he's in a similar boat but he can't farm as easily so his silly damage/mobility isn't as bad as Zeds. It would have to call for a redesign with one of his abilities then imo. I'm not saying they should neuter him in terms of damage, but they really do need to tone it down a little. Or perhaps shift his ult damage onto some of his abilities, make his ability to pop squishies a little bit less ridiculous, but his ability to poke/harass before teamfight start, a bit stronger? I dunno, just tossing out ideas. Lots of people can poke/harass before teamfights. Really feel his Q just needs a redesign/neuting. It's what lets him poke, harass, farm all bypassing the weakness of being a melee hero. If he had to use his W/E more to farm when behind it would make him a lot more susceptible to getting ganked and it's on a longer cooldown.
His Q damage to champs is pretty underwhelming, in a 5v5 setting. It's just great in wave clear, and easy farming, with 1v1 lane early on. They could probably turn down his amplifying AD scaling too. Or make it so he has to scale harder with AD, and less base damage, so he's forced to build expensive AD items, rather than BotRK+BC+LW, and need something like BT+Hydra+LW to do all his damage or something?
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They could even remove the free AD his W gets and lower the CD so it's just an escape and extra combo ability while lowering damage on Q so you have to use shadows more effectively to get same damage output
@Wei - Yea that sounds good too. Honestly there are lots of ways to adjust Zed without just nerfing his numbers. Just this quick discussion has a lot of cool ideas that with some testing could be refined. I do expect S4 to maybe change the arpen %/Flat again.
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On October 06 2013 01:32 Numy wrote:
They could even remove the free AD his W gets and lower the CD so it's just an escape and extra combo ability while lowering damage on Q so you have to use shadows more effectively to get same damage output
@Wei - Yea that sounds good too. Honestly there are lots of ways to adjust Zed without just nerfing his numbers. Just this quick discussion has a lot of cool ideas that with some testing could be refined.
Ugh, I hate slippery champions. Low W cooldown would pretty much make him harder to catch than he already is.
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United States47024 Posts
Honestly, I don't think any champ is so out of line right now that their balance needs to take priority over the other systemic issues in the game right now.
Worrying about champ balance is a mis-assignment of priorities from Riot IMO.
EDIT: Also, worrying about individual champ balance right now is virtually meaningless, given the massive overhaul of S4 on the horizion. Any individual champ change will have basically zero impact compared to the reshuffle of power based on playstyle changes due to whatever systemic changes Riot makes in S4.
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On October 06 2013 01:44 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, I don't think any champ is so out of line right now that their balance needs to take priority over the other systemic issues in the game right now.
Worrying about champ balance is a mis-assignment of priorities from Riot IMO.
EDIT: Also, worrying about individual champ balance right now is virtually meaningless, given the massive overhaul of S4 on the horizion. Any individual champ change will have basically zero impact compared to the reshuffle of power based on playstyle changes due to whatever systemic changes Riot makes in S4.
Is the game in really that bad of a place? I mean, I agree that it could definitely use changes, but not anything so drastic that a champ with 100% pick and ban at worlds couldn't use some balancing first.
Edit: I agree with your edit, though. I forgot that they are already making pretty drastic game changes anyway.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
I'd like a more general tacke at the current dominance of assassins rather than specifically going after zed himself.
Even then the strength orianna and gragas has shown in the later of stages in worlds suggests that even then assassins aren't as much of a problem as people make them out to be.
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On October 06 2013 01:49 Fusilero wrote:
I'd like a more general tacke at the current dominance of assassins rather than specifically going after zed himself.
Even then the strength orianna and gragas has shown in the later of stages in worlds suggests that even then assassins aren't as much of a problem as people make them out to be.
What assassins are dominant right now? Only Zed...
I guess I'd count Ahri as an assassin, but pick champs are a little different than assassin.
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On October 06 2013 01:18 Dark_Chill wrote:
So why doesn't xerath get picked more often? I know he has low mobility, but he doesn't seem to be that bad in laning (it seems manageable at least) and later on you're basically fighting from a map away. The extra armor from his passive is kinda nice, and his stun is pretty reliable thanks to his ult. His damage is also retarded. I can understand him not being picked often, but not even once?
As someone who played a shit load of xerath pre and post 30's and doesn't anymore, he's also not that fun, you feel like a god when your ult is up, but when they engage during a lul in you cool downs, "welp, i guess im a half second stun, have some damage guize!!11! ... oh I don't do anything"  , also hes pretty binary to play.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 06 2013 01:52 nanospartan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 01:18 Dark_Chill wrote:
So why doesn't xerath get picked more often? I know he has low mobility, but he doesn't seem to be that bad in laning (it seems manageable at least) and later on you're basically fighting from a map away. The extra armor from his passive is kinda nice, and his stun is pretty reliable thanks to his ult. His damage is also retarded. I can understand him not being picked often, but not even once? As someone who played a shit load of xerath pre and post 30's and doesn't anymore, he's also not that fun, you feel like a god when your ult is up, but when they engage during a lul in you cool downs, "welp, i guess im a half second stun, have some damage guize!!11! ... oh I don't do anything" , also hes pretty binary to play.
This is why I'm happy that he's being reworked, sure he's balanced but it's just boring you effectively only have one proper ability for a minute after ulting. The other two are just utility for his Q and ult.
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On October 06 2013 01:52 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 01:49 Fusilero wrote:
I'd like a more general tacke at the current dominance of assassins rather than specifically going after zed himself.
Even then the strength orianna and gragas has shown in the later of stages in worlds suggests that even then assassins aren't as much of a problem as people make them out to be. What assassins are dominant right now? Only Zed... I guess I'd count Ahri as an assassin, but pick champs are a little different than assassin.
Ahri, Fizz, Zed, Kass are all big picks bans. Eve sees lots of plays (though she plays less of a bursty assassin than the others). Kha was a big pick before his changes and certain teams still run him a lot.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 06 2013 01:55 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 01:52 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:49 Fusilero wrote:
I'd like a more general tacke at the current dominance of assassins rather than specifically going after zed himself.
Even then the strength orianna and gragas has shown in the later of stages in worlds suggests that even then assassins aren't as much of a problem as people make them out to be. What assassins are dominant right now? Only Zed... I guess I'd count Ahri as an assassin, but pick champs are a little different than assassin. Ahri, Fizz, Zed, Kass are all big picks bans. Eve sees lots of plays (though she plays less of a bursty assassin than the others). Kha was a big pick before his changes and certain teams still run him a lot.
New kha should get played more, I only see kerp do it but he's so good at in out insta killing squishes and pick offs now.
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On October 06 2013 01:55 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 01:52 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:49 Fusilero wrote:
I'd like a more general tacke at the current dominance of assassins rather than specifically going after zed himself.
Even then the strength orianna and gragas has shown in the later of stages in worlds suggests that even then assassins aren't as much of a problem as people make them out to be. What assassins are dominant right now? Only Zed... I guess I'd count Ahri as an assassin, but pick champs are a little different than assassin. Ahri, Fizz, Zed, Kass are all big picks bans. Eve sees lots of plays (though she plays less of a bursty assassin than the others). Kha was a big pick before his changes and certain teams still run him a lot.
Fizz has noticeable weaknesses, and Kass is only pick/ban on like 2 pros. If anything that's a nice spread of champions, I wouldn't say that they were overwhelmingly toxic in Worlds like Zed was.
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On October 06 2013 01:58 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 01:55 Requizen wrote:On October 06 2013 01:52 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:49 Fusilero wrote:
I'd like a more general tacke at the current dominance of assassins rather than specifically going after zed himself.
Even then the strength orianna and gragas has shown in the later of stages in worlds suggests that even then assassins aren't as much of a problem as people make them out to be. What assassins are dominant right now? Only Zed... I guess I'd count Ahri as an assassin, but pick champs are a little different than assassin. Ahri, Fizz, Zed, Kass are all big picks bans. Eve sees lots of plays (though she plays less of a bursty assassin than the others). Kha was a big pick before his changes and certain teams still run him a lot. Fizz has noticeable weaknesses, and Kass is only pick/ban on like 2 pros. If anything that's a nice spread of champions, I wouldn't say that they were overwhelmingly toxic in Worlds like Zed was.
The only other mids that saw lots of picks were Ori and Grag. While Fizz and Kass might not be "dominant", when 4 of the 6 most picked mids are assassins, it's an assassin meta - especially when Ori and Grag are really only picked for being good against said assassins. You can't really deny that.
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On October 06 2013 01:08 Requizen wrote:
Clearly the easiest way to balance him would be to make him have mana instead of energy.
But Talon already exists.
Talon actually can't spam at any moment, nor clear well until he starts getting AD, and he only has one ability to do so.
Even if Zed can't clear with Q, E is AoE with longer range than his autos and no animation whatsoever so it's easy to snag a last hit this way. He also has shorter cooldowns than Talon's (Rake is a flat 10) and longer range (900 vs 600 then 290 PB-AoE vs 125 (Talon's aa range)).
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On October 06 2013 02:01 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 01:58 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:55 Requizen wrote:On October 06 2013 01:52 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:49 Fusilero wrote:
I'd like a more general tacke at the current dominance of assassins rather than specifically going after zed himself.
Even then the strength orianna and gragas has shown in the later of stages in worlds suggests that even then assassins aren't as much of a problem as people make them out to be. What assassins are dominant right now? Only Zed... I guess I'd count Ahri as an assassin, but pick champs are a little different than assassin. Ahri, Fizz, Zed, Kass are all big picks bans. Eve sees lots of plays (though she plays less of a bursty assassin than the others). Kha was a big pick before his changes and certain teams still run him a lot. Fizz has noticeable weaknesses, and Kass is only pick/ban on like 2 pros. If anything that's a nice spread of champions, I wouldn't say that they were overwhelmingly toxic in Worlds like Zed was. The only other mids that saw lots of picks were Ori and Grag. While Fizz and Kass might not be "dominant", when 4 of the 6 most picked mids are assassins, it's an assassin meta - especially when Ori and Grag are really only picked for being good against said assassins. You can't really deny that.
Not enough people play Riven mid, that's all.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On a note for the assassin meta does anyone else feel like I do that fiddle support had become popular as an attempt to answer for assassins?
On October 06 2013 02:06 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 02:01 Requizen wrote:On October 06 2013 01:58 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:55 Requizen wrote:On October 06 2013 01:52 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:49 Fusilero wrote:
I'd like a more general tacke at the current dominance of assassins rather than specifically going after zed himself.
Even then the strength orianna and gragas has shown in the later of stages in worlds suggests that even then assassins aren't as much of a problem as people make them out to be. What assassins are dominant right now? Only Zed... I guess I'd count Ahri as an assassin, but pick champs are a little different than assassin. Ahri, Fizz, Zed, Kass are all big picks bans. Eve sees lots of plays (though she plays less of a bursty assassin than the others). Kha was a big pick before his changes and certain teams still run him a lot. Fizz has noticeable weaknesses, and Kass is only pick/ban on like 2 pros. If anything that's a nice spread of champions, I wouldn't say that they were overwhelmingly toxic in Worlds like Zed was. The only other mids that saw lots of picks were Ori and Grag. While Fizz and Kass might not be "dominant", when 4 of the 6 most picked mids are assassins, it's an assassin meta - especially when Ori and Grag are really only picked for being good against said assassins. You can't really deny that. Not enough people play Riven mid, that's all.
Not enough pros play Riven mid, too many yolo queue retards play Riven mid.
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On October 06 2013 02:06 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 02:01 Requizen wrote:On October 06 2013 01:58 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:55 Requizen wrote:On October 06 2013 01:52 wei2coolman wrote:On October 06 2013 01:49 Fusilero wrote:
I'd like a more general tacke at the current dominance of assassins rather than specifically going after zed himself.
Even then the strength orianna and gragas has shown in the later of stages in worlds suggests that even then assassins aren't as much of a problem as people make them out to be. What assassins are dominant right now? Only Zed... I guess I'd count Ahri as an assassin, but pick champs are a little different than assassin. Ahri, Fizz, Zed, Kass are all big picks bans. Eve sees lots of plays (though she plays less of a bursty assassin than the others). Kha was a big pick before his changes and certain teams still run him a lot. Fizz has noticeable weaknesses, and Kass is only pick/ban on like 2 pros. If anything that's a nice spread of champions, I wouldn't say that they were overwhelmingly toxic in Worlds like Zed was. The only other mids that saw lots of picks were Ori and Grag. While Fizz and Kass might not be "dominant", when 4 of the 6 most picked mids are assassins, it's an assassin meta - especially when Ori and Grag are really only picked for being good against said assassins. You can't really deny that. Not enough people play Riven mid, that's all.
Riven is arguably still pretty assasssin-y, considering her burst and ability to dive and instagib squishies.
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EPT
