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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 28 2013 00:02 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 23:34 Slayer91 wrote:On October 27 2013 23:27 Parnage wrote:
Yay, a proper answer. Thanks. my answer was actually the exactly the same and more concise except with less error because assuming that pros never hit skillshots is dumb and poke comps are definitely viable Poke comps are a shadow of their former glory. I never said pros dont hit skillshots, I said they are FAR less likely to get hit randomly outside engagements. Ask anybody from TSM or Curse (I remember SV actually went into significant detail on how riot has systematically destroyed poke comps on his stream but I cant be bothered to find it). Until something major is changed poke comps (for competitive play) will only be seen when playing something different or comfortable trumps playing the standard superior comps because you are outclassed by your opponent or unprepared for the meta. Will it work? Sometimes, but so does everything.
you need to watch some recent games. nidalee all day
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Korea is bringing back the likes of Nid and Jayce for the sake of poking, which is kind of funny and great to watch how other teams try to deal with it
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
more leblanc and syndra as a counter is pretty alright
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You mean people stopped being retarded and realised that Jayce somehow happened to not have been nearly as nerfed as they cried and roared and whined he was?
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good, good let the jayce-hate flow through you
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On October 28 2013 00:07 Nos- wrote:
Korea is bringing back the likes of Nid and Jayce for the sake of poking, which is kind of funny and great to watch how other teams try to deal with it
Like I said, a maximum disrespect pick. Id love to see interviews with Faker saying he would midalee or fear a midalee in a worlds finals given 3.12 meta. Until I see the top Korean and Chinese teams picking her in high stakes evenly matched series I will need some convincing.
Low level teams or even matches early in a tournament will often be players picking their most comfortable champs. A person with 1000 Nidalee games can play her at almost 100% with his eyes closed so the pressure has minimal effect on his play. Does this mean that poke is as good as the accepted meta? No, it means you are better off with a nidalee playing at 100% than a Zed played at 50%.
I hope season 4 ushers in a new age for mid since I am not a huge fan of League of Assassins or the limited counter play we are forced to deal with (Im looking at you Gragas and Orianna) but I am not gonna promote the delusional "everything is viable/everything is a skill match up" philosophy so many spout to make themselves feel better/superior.
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For the record, when Jayce was nerfed and Kha'Zix changed and everyone said they were raped to Olaf-ness and unusable, I said "meh, it only means it takes them something like twice the casts (Kha'Zix) or half more time (Jayce) to do the exact same thing in terms of damage and AoE to people. It could be a problem in manfights, but since we're talking about poke it doesn't matter if you need 4 or 5 rotations to kill somebody, unless of course you want this objective because the other lanes are pushing you, and in this case it's your fault for not playing a poke comp right."
(It also made Kha'Zix clearing/roaming less obnoxious (see: Zed) because he couldn't OS the wave anymore post-6, and Jayce less overbearing because it reduced the number of EQ he threw at you if he wanted to OS the wave himself.)
TL;DR: I was never satisfied with the Jayce nerfs, I was satisfied that people overstated them and decided to stop playing him altogether. You don't need to hate him to think people were dumb to push him under the rug.
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Alaric, you're pretty drasitcally understating the effect of just taking "twice as long" to do the same amount of damage for a poke comp. There's a real concern when you get to the point of sieging inner and inhibitor turrets where you really don't have forever to do poke around because homeguard allows them to spend 15ish seconds to base and return (including recall/walking back.) Poke comps aren't typically great at 5v4ing a team who had one person retreat to heal - you ARE on a clock.
Also, Khazix still isn't going to go back to what it was, the W changes have solidified "Q style" as the correct way to play him.
Number changes - especially significant ones like Jayce, also take quite a lot of work to adapt to at the highest level, because you have to totally relearn the limits of your champion. The effort required to keep 'current' with a champion through nerfs could easily push pro players into dropping it: even if they think it might still be playable, that doesn't mean it's worth the effort. Also, the process of forcibly relearning limits could easily confirm the perception that a nerf is completely crippling.
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So, I got Varus recently and I'm enjoying him quite a bit.
He seems very solo queue friendly. He can poke, he does pretty good damage, he can bully lane, and he can initiate fights. I haven't found his lack of an escape to be too horrible so far. I am enjoying this.
What's the item path for him? I've been going BT>LW>IE>PD, but possibly this is wrong.
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On October 28 2013 00:56 Ketara wrote:
So, I got Varus recently and I'm enjoying him quite a bit.
He seems very solo queue friendly. He can poke, he does pretty good damage, he can bully lane, and he can initiate fights. I haven't found his lack of an escape to be too horrible so far. I am enjoying this.
What's the item path for him? I've been going BT>LW>IE>PD, but possibly this is wrong.
Legolas build is fine on him.
BotRK is also a good starting item on him as well.
Or you can go full genja, and rush Muramana.
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On October 28 2013 00:56 Ketara wrote:
So, I got Varus recently and I'm enjoying him quite a bit.
He seems very solo queue friendly. He can poke, he does pretty good damage, he can bully lane, and he can initiate fights. I haven't found his lack of an escape to be too horrible so far. I am enjoying this.
What's the item path for him? I've been going BT>LW>IE>PD, but possibly this is wrong.
I used to main Varus but that was a long time ago. Isn't it mathematically superior to at least get a zeal before your second big damage item? Or has something changed (I know botrk got nerfed but shiv/pd was more standard on him anyways I thought).
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On October 28 2013 01:05 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 00:56 Ketara wrote:
So, I got Varus recently and I'm enjoying him quite a bit.
He seems very solo queue friendly. He can poke, he does pretty good damage, he can bully lane, and he can initiate fights. I haven't found his lack of an escape to be too horrible so far. I am enjoying this.
What's the item path for him? I've been going BT>LW>IE>PD, but possibly this is wrong. Legolas build is fine on him. BotRK is also a good starting item on him as well. Or you can go full genja, and rush Muramana.
Your full genja build doesn't have enough dorans blades.
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On October 28 2013 00:23 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 00:07 Nos- wrote:
Korea is bringing back the likes of Nid and Jayce for the sake of poking, which is kind of funny and great to watch how other teams try to deal with it Like I said, a maximum disrespect pick. Id love to see interviews with Faker saying he would midalee or fear a midalee in a worlds finals given 3.12 meta. Until I see the top Korean and Chinese teams picking her in high stakes evenly matched series I will need some convincing. Low level teams or even matches early in a tournament will often be players picking their most comfortable champs. A person with 1000 Nidalee games can play her at almost 100% with his eyes closed so the pressure has minimal effect on his play. Does this mean that poke is as good as the accepted meta? No, it means you are better off with a nidalee playing at 100% than a Zed played at 50%. I hope season 4 ushers in a new age for mid since I am not a huge fan of League of Assassins or the limited counter play we are forced to deal with (Im looking at you Gragas and Orianna) but I am not gonna promote the delusional "everything is viable/everything is a skill match up" philosophy so many spout to make themselves feel better/superior.
Pretty sure Samsung blue beat skt t1 with mid lane nidalee during semifinals of wcg korea. SKT T1 then banned nidalee for game 2. Then Blaze banned nidalee vs Samsung blue in the finals...
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On October 28 2013 01:26 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 00:56 Ketara wrote:
So, I got Varus recently and I'm enjoying him quite a bit.
He seems very solo queue friendly. He can poke, he does pretty good damage, he can bully lane, and he can initiate fights. I haven't found his lack of an escape to be too horrible so far. I am enjoying this.
What's the item path for him? I've been going BT>LW>IE>PD, but possibly this is wrong. I used to main Varus but that was a long time ago. Isn't it mathematically superior to at least get a zeal before your second big damage item? Or has something changed (I know botrk got nerfed but shiv/pd was more standard on him anyways I thought).
Alot of times you just want the burst damage of BT->LW to kill a target fast and then use his massive AS steroid to keep going in the fight.
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I have no idea what's mathematically best on ADC's.
I stay away from that shit.
But that BT>LW arrow poke is gr8.
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On October 28 2013 01:38 Couvre wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 00:23 Velocirapture wrote:On October 28 2013 00:07 Nos- wrote:
Korea is bringing back the likes of Nid and Jayce for the sake of poking, which is kind of funny and great to watch how other teams try to deal with it Like I said, a maximum disrespect pick. Id love to see interviews with Faker saying he would midalee or fear a midalee in a worlds finals given 3.12 meta. Until I see the top Korean and Chinese teams picking her in high stakes evenly matched series I will need some convincing. Low level teams or even matches early in a tournament will often be players picking their most comfortable champs. A person with 1000 Nidalee games can play her at almost 100% with his eyes closed so the pressure has minimal effect on his play. Does this mean that poke is as good as the accepted meta? No, it means you are better off with a nidalee playing at 100% than a Zed played at 50%. I hope season 4 ushers in a new age for mid since I am not a huge fan of League of Assassins or the limited counter play we are forced to deal with (Im looking at you Gragas and Orianna) but I am not gonna promote the delusional "everything is viable/everything is a skill match up" philosophy so many spout to make themselves feel better/superior. Pretty sure Samsung blue beat skt t1 with mid lane nidalee during semifinals of wcg korea. SKT T1 then banned nidalee for game 2. Then Blaze banned nidalee vs Samsung blue in the finals...
If you actually watched that game you would see that had nothing to do with her strength as a poke comp champion and way more to do with SKT1 losing every lane. When I hold up SKT1 Im using them as a proxy for optimal play. Yes, even faker has bad days where he goes 0-3-0 vs a 3-0-1 by 9 minutes in mid lane and gives and advantage any good mid could snowball.
Everything works sometimes, I am not saying that having a a lot of tools in the shed is bad. I am simply saying that the reasons for doing a poke comp is not because it is objectively superior or even equal to the meta. Capitalizing on holes in player knowledge and taking a player out of his comfort zone in high pressure matches are valid tactics when you are not comfortable with a standard match. It's like cheesing in Starcraft, it takes the pressure off you and invites your opponent to throw the game.
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On October 28 2013 02:04 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 01:38 Couvre wrote:On October 28 2013 00:23 Velocirapture wrote:On October 28 2013 00:07 Nos- wrote:
Korea is bringing back the likes of Nid and Jayce for the sake of poking, which is kind of funny and great to watch how other teams try to deal with it Like I said, a maximum disrespect pick. Id love to see interviews with Faker saying he would midalee or fear a midalee in a worlds finals given 3.12 meta. Until I see the top Korean and Chinese teams picking her in high stakes evenly matched series I will need some convincing. Low level teams or even matches early in a tournament will often be players picking their most comfortable champs. A person with 1000 Nidalee games can play her at almost 100% with his eyes closed so the pressure has minimal effect on his play. Does this mean that poke is as good as the accepted meta? No, it means you are better off with a nidalee playing at 100% than a Zed played at 50%. I hope season 4 ushers in a new age for mid since I am not a huge fan of League of Assassins or the limited counter play we are forced to deal with (Im looking at you Gragas and Orianna) but I am not gonna promote the delusional "everything is viable/everything is a skill match up" philosophy so many spout to make themselves feel better/superior. Pretty sure Samsung blue beat skt t1 with mid lane nidalee during semifinals of wcg korea. SKT T1 then banned nidalee for game 2. Then Blaze banned nidalee vs Samsung blue in the finals... If you actually watched that game you would see that had nothing to do with her strength as a poke comp champion and way more to do with SKT1 losing every lane. When I hold up SKT1 Im using them as a proxy for optimal play. Yes, even faker has bad days where he goes 0-3-0 vs a 3-0-1 by 9 minutes in mid lane and gives and advantage any good mid could snowball. Everything works sometimes, I am not saying that having a a lot of tools in the shed is bad. I am simply saying that the reasons for doing a poke comp is not because it is objectively superior or even equal to the meta. Capitalizing on holes in player knowledge and taking a player out of his comfort zone in high pressure matches are valid tactics when you are not comfortable with a standard match. It's like cheesing in Starcraft, it takes the pressure off you and invites your opponent to throw the game.
Right, I have no desire to argue something like the meta with you. I was just pointing out that your statement "Until I see the top Korean and Chinese teams picking her in high stakes evenly matched series I will need some convincing" has already happened. Ozone also played nid vs Blue.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
KTA's rookie put a high priority on nidalee vs IM #2. Kuro's syndra seemed to ruin the siege comp though whether it's the result of syndra herself or kuro just being exceptional at syndra I'd have to wait and see.
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On October 28 2013 02:20 Fusilero wrote:
KTA's rookie put a high priority on nidalee vs IM #2. Kuro's syndra seemed to ruin the siege comp though whether it's the result of syndra herself or kuro just being exceptional at syndra I'd have to wait and see.
Riris is just a ball magnet
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On October 28 2013 02:02 Ketara wrote:
I have no idea what's mathematically best on ADC's.
I stay away from that shit.
But that BT>LW arrow poke is gr8.
What's mathematically best is easy to calculate if you assume no autos, all autos, or a certain fraction of autos/skills. The all autos standard tends to be IE/PD/LW with few variations but as we all know many champs break this rule, either because sustain is important (vamp scepter/bt/bortk first), their skills are high-impact (BT), the champ benefits from an earlier power timing and dueling capability (botrk), they just want to poke/burst people to death (TF), or they need a little split push/farming power (shiv).
I mean you can do all the numbers and stuff but there are too many factors in league that are hard to quantify for numbers to mean a whole lot except in those rare situations where your only question is "how can I do the most damage in X item slots and Y gold?"
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EPT
