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On October 26 2013 00:10 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 00:03 Alaric wrote:
If the support gets ruby sightstone and a pink, and all other team member one ward, +1 pink for the jungler, you've got 7 wards and 2 pinks available at any given time (not including trinkets, we lack details). That's pretty much what you can currently expect from a team leveraging vision properly.
Vision's only reduced if you get the same teammates that refuse to help currently (or are at a level where vision is unheard of), in organised play (or if above some threshold level people start reliably buying wards) it'll be the same as right now, which combined with Xypherous not stating vision reduction amongst their goals leads me to believe that it is not intended.
Pretty much like low vision in low level games is a byproduct of said level, not a design feature.
(If Riot's goal was to reduce vision (and their plans worked accordingly), then I wouldn't say anything about limiting wards and how they removed a single player's ability to sink more resources toward more vision, because it'd be their goal, one I can agree with.
But because it seems unintended, and makes vision solely dependant on whether your teammates are willing to spend on it or not, I think it's bad/awkward design that removes choice from the individual player and thus lessens the game's depth.) And I fundamentally disagree. One of the key aspects of a game like this MUST be teamwork. We are playing a teamgame at it's core. Half of the reason why soloQ is so toxic is because that aspect is not enforced in some way. Not enough wards? Blame the support. Loosing your lane? Blame the jungler. Obviously Riot cannot "fix" everything for us, and frankly blamers and flamers will always find something to criticize but removing the "burden" of warding from the support (or at least forcing a team to spread that burden) is one viable option we should explore.
Yah it's about measure: I'm not defending the "ward carrier" aspect at all, I'm saying "mandatory only wards is bad, forbidden warding is bad; being able to prioritise wards is good".
In the same vein, I think that "necessary teamplay" should mean "you play better with them", not "you can't do much without them", especially for soloQ, and when it comes to vision I feel that it's leaning closer to the latter with the ward limit.
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On October 26 2013 00:19 Ghost-z wrote:
Well there were 3 types of trinkets listed in a post on surrender@20 and they were supposed to "level up" at like lvl 9 or so to give them either shorter cooldowns or longer durations.
Basically your trinket choices were:
1) a short term ward (think wriggles)
2) a short term oracle (think hextech sweeper)
3) a medium range CV
Right, but Sightstone, regular wards, and vision wards will still exist. They mentioned Oracle's might be goners though.
It looks like Trinkets will be able to be swapped out, but doing so will incur a CD so you can't Lens somewhere on the map then grab Sweeper right after.
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Plus they are currently free so everyone gets one at lvl 1
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The 3 solo laners take the free trinket ward. Jungler takes the sweeper trinket. Supports take the CV so they can still place 3 other wards and a pink.
Lategame squishy carries can swap to another CV trinket so they dont have to face check because even going in range to ward can be a trap.
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I think ADs will actually prefer Lens and Supports will take Sweeper, gives way more brush control bot lane.
I would imagine mid would want Lens as well. Ward one side, Lens the other and then you know you can push. Alternatively, Lens while roaming or to try and snipe Blue when they go to take it.
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Thanks for the speedy responses guys. I just really started playing ranked for the first time a month or so ago and right now I'm stuck in Silver III and I'm having a lot of troulble being consistent. I try to be a teamplayer and fill for what my team needs but I'm always put in positions where I don't feel I can carry my team
For example.. my team is squishy and I'm going top lane. I pick a tanky initiator (zac) cause we have none. I farm well and don't feed and actually get a kill in lane. Now when team fights happen I know my role as Zac is to initiate on them and CC/disrupt as many of their damage dealers as I can. The problem is I feel like I'm just putting my fate into the hands of my carries.. and it doesnt matter how well I initiate if my carries don't know how to dps/stay alive. Would the better choice to say fk the team.. I'm picking a carry champion top and I'm gonna kill everyone or continue to be the teams bitch? I have a buddy of mine in Diamond who pretty much says I should just try to carry every game and pick champions that can do so.. my thought is if I let my team play what they're best at it will overall increase my odds of winning.
don't get me started on when they tell me I have to jungle and I inform them its not my best role. The amount of rage directed towards me is insane.. I'm supposed to gank EVERYONES lane all the time and win the lane for them.. no matter what I do its NEVER good enough
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I also realize the last point is hardly exclusive to me and is something all junglers have to deal with at some point or another.. just sort of ranting I guess (also bored at work so this thread is keeping me occupied)
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On October 26 2013 00:27 Pharcyd3 wrote:
Thanks for the speedy responses guys. I just really started playing ranked for the first time a month or so ago and right now I'm stuck in Silver III and I'm having a lot of troulble being consistent. I try to be a teamplayer and fill for what my team needs but I'm always put in positions where I don't feel I can carry my team
For example.. my team is squishy and I'm going top lane. I pick a tanky initiator (zac) cause we have none. I farm well and don't feed and actually get a kill in lane. Now when team fights happen I know my role as Zac is to initiate on them and CC/disrupt as many of their damage dealers as I can. The problem is I feel like I'm just putting my fate into the hands of my carries.. and it doesnt matter how well I initiate if my carries don't know how to dps/stay alive. Would the better choice to say fk the team.. I'm picking a carry champion top and I'm gonna kill everyone or continue to be the teams bitch? I have a buddy of mine in Diamond who pretty much says I should just try to carry every game and pick champions that can do so.. my thought is if I let my team play what they're best at it will overall increase my odds of winning.
don't get me started on when they tell me I have to jungle and I inform them its not my best role. The amount of rage directed towards me is insane.. I'm supposed to gank EVERYONES lane all the time and win the lane for them.. no matter what I do its NEVER good enough
The reverse is true if you try to carry but then GG noobs cant peel and they dive me every fight. I'd say your best bet would be someone like renekton (i know OP right) who can face tank the enemy team 4v1 while still making any adc's life hell if you're ahead.
Edit: Or from a carry's POV choose one with lots of self peel like Ez or Corki if you think you can't rely on teammates.
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On October 26 2013 00:27 Pharcyd3 wrote:
Thanks for the speedy responses guys. I just really started playing ranked for the first time a month or so ago and right now I'm stuck in Silver III and I'm having a lot of troulble being consistent. I try to be a teamplayer and fill for what my team needs but I'm always put in positions where I don't feel I can carry my team
For example.. my team is squishy and I'm going top lane. I pick a tanky initiator (zac) cause we have none. I farm well and don't feed and actually get a kill in lane. Now when team fights happen I know my role as Zac is to initiate on them and CC/disrupt as many of their damage dealers as I can. The problem is I feel like I'm just putting my fate into the hands of my carries.. and it doesnt matter how well I initiate if my carries don't know how to dps/stay alive. Would the better choice to say fk the team.. I'm picking a carry champion top and I'm gonna kill everyone or continue to be the teams bitch? I have a buddy of mine in Diamond who pretty much says I should just try to carry every game and pick champions that can do so.. my thought is if I let my team play what they're best at it will overall increase my odds of winning.
don't get me started on when they tell me I have to jungle and I inform them its not my best role. The amount of rage directed towards me is insane.. I'm supposed to gank EVERYONES lane all the time and win the lane for them.. no matter what I do its NEVER good enough
I take it you're fairly new? 
This is just how League is. If you're not the carry, they're invariably terrible and do no damage. If you are the carry, your front line is invariably non-existent. If you're the jungle or support, it's your fault. Learn to love the mute button, it's your best friend 
As for tanky champions, I find that it's better to either build someone who does a decent amount of damage still building straight tanky (Darius, for example) or someone who can semi-bruiser-semi-carry (Irelia/Jax are common picks, Teemo if you're a true man) and then make sure you still do damage while being that front line.
I think, for lower level solo queue anyway, being a pure tanky initiator is a really bad idea. You need to at least have the potential to semi-carry if necessary and your teammates are horrid.
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On October 26 2013 00:20 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 00:10 Tula wrote:On October 26 2013 00:03 Alaric wrote:
If the support gets ruby sightstone and a pink, and all other team member one ward, +1 pink for the jungler, you've got 7 wards and 2 pinks available at any given time (not including trinkets, we lack details). That's pretty much what you can currently expect from a team leveraging vision properly.
Vision's only reduced if you get the same teammates that refuse to help currently (or are at a level where vision is unheard of), in organised play (or if above some threshold level people start reliably buying wards) it'll be the same as right now, which combined with Xypherous not stating vision reduction amongst their goals leads me to believe that it is not intended.
Pretty much like low vision in low level games is a byproduct of said level, not a design feature.
(If Riot's goal was to reduce vision (and their plans worked accordingly), then I wouldn't say anything about limiting wards and how they removed a single player's ability to sink more resources toward more vision, because it'd be their goal, one I can agree with.
But because it seems unintended, and makes vision solely dependant on whether your teammates are willing to spend on it or not, I think it's bad/awkward design that removes choice from the individual player and thus lessens the game's depth.) And I fundamentally disagree. One of the key aspects of a game like this MUST be teamwork. We are playing a teamgame at it's core. Half of the reason why soloQ is so toxic is because that aspect is not enforced in some way. Not enough wards? Blame the support. Loosing your lane? Blame the jungler. Obviously Riot cannot "fix" everything for us, and frankly blamers and flamers will always find something to criticize but removing the "burden" of warding from the support (or at least forcing a team to spread that burden) is one viable option we should explore. Yah it's about measure: I'm not defending the "ward carrier" aspect at all, I'm saying "mandatory only wards is bad, forbidden warding is bad; being able to prioritise wards is good". In the same vein, I think that "necessary teamplay" should mean "you play better with them", not "you can't do much without them", especially for soloQ, and when it comes to vision I feel that it's leaning closer to the latter with the ward limit.
You're not actually forbidden from placing or buying wards over your limit, it's just placing too many wards causes your previous wards to disappear.
It's like when the passive on black cleaver wasn't unique, it gives people the "choice" to stack BCs, except it's not a choice when it's clearly the best thing to do. Making the passives unique on BC opened up more possibilities at the expensive of making stacking BCs an obviously bad play
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Being a pure tanky initiator is basically always terrible. It's a role of last resort for heroes that have other strengths, like split pushing for shen or early ganks for maokai. Ideally with these heroes you get so far ahead that simple level disparity from the norm means you deal a lot of damage. If a point comes in teamfights where you're strictly a cc bot that's bad news. You should always be looking to leverage your heroes' strengths into something besides "I can take a lot of damage and deliver a bit of cc."
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There's a bunch of stuff that can carry, they just don't all do it the same way.
I don't think I carry, I'm never the driving force behind my team. However, when I'm putting enough pressure top that the enemy jungler comes and I manage not to die, it helps my team by relieving pressure (sometimes even gives us drakes);
when as a support I'm proactive in zoning the enemy carry or force him back I make life easier for mine, and by keeping track of wards and recall timing I help get drakes and thus global gold;
as a mid laner when I roam I can help our failing lanes or take several kills early that make us stronger in teamfights;
as a jungler I'll never be that 10-0-2 Lee Sin with Hydra+sightstone+mercs at 10 minutes but if I give 2 kills to both top and mid despite disavantageous match-ups early i make it way easier for them to then carry me.
Carrying in soloQ isn't about picking a high damage champion and kill everything on the map 5 times over being strong enough to 1v4. Well, it's not only about that.
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Yeah... I "mained" mid when I played league during the beginning of Season 2 but I mostly played normal games. Now after getting bored with SC2 I decided to come back and I made a conscious efford to be the "team player" in solo queue and I'm really not having much success. When I get mid I usually carry but that hardly ever happens and I'm usually forced into roles i'm not as good at... I think it's time to back to having a main that I try to play every game.
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Well, you're not always going to get the role you like The goal is to have at least 1-2 champs you feel good at in each role, even if they're not the most viable. In my opinion, you shouldn't ever pick your champion based on the needs of your team, pick the ones you're good at. Even if it doesn't fit the "comp", you'll do better than picking a champion you suck at that "fits".
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Yeah I know I won't get my preferred role every time but as it stands now i'll usually give someone mid even if I have pick order over them if they insist on it. I think I gotta start being a little more selfish when I have pick order advantage :D
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OR you could take the Mathies approach, and only play one mid ever, and then duo mid when you don't get it first.
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On October 26 2013 00:51 Pharcyd3 wrote:
Yeah I know I won't get my preferred role every time but as it stands now i'll usually give someone mid even if I have pick order over them if they insist on it. I think I gotta start being a little more selfish when I have pick order advantage :D
Another thing to remember is that you can occasionally pick your favored champions in non-traditional roles. Especially if you like to mid champions like Swain/Ryze/Morde, you can take them top. Annie support is a thing, and you'll even occasionally see a Fizz or Zed jungle (though it kinda sucks).
But yeah, most people are fine if you're a higher pick and say like "sorry, I'm going mid" or the like.
On October 26 2013 00:53 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
OR you could take the Mathies approach, and only play one mid ever, and then duo mid when you don't get it first.
Ghandi plz.
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I think being a team player (take any open role) is valuable. Sure, if you "main" one role you will probably reach a higher rank due to being able to focus on that role, but conversely you will do worse when you can't get your main role. Also, I haven't ever needed to dodge a ranked queue that I've said I've been willing to fill in -- seems like even if two people want mid, they're not going to squander a queue where they get someone willing to play support ...
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Yeah I think my current mentality will help me in the long-term.. I may increase in league quicker if I just take mid every time that I can but if I have experience with all roles it may make me a better player overall.. eventually
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United States15536 Posts
On October 26 2013 00:57 Pharcyd3 wrote:
Yeah I think my current mentality will help me in the long-term.. I may increase in league quicker if I just take mid every time that I can but if I have experience with all roles it may make me a better player overall.. eventually
Pick a Champion to play in each role. Only play that Champion. You end up being (moderately) flexible, but playing one Champion over and over is (I feel) the easiest way to increase your skills.
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EPT
